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 Re: WRC S2000Turbo future by Chris B

7-Sep-08 09:37 PM 

"But if you think that a front wheel drive car with traction control or any other electronic driving aids will be spectacular I think you would be sorely disappointed."

Maybe re-consider traction control. I dont know how far electronics should go with cost and spectacle in mind, but works rally cars also should not be less sophisticated than road cars.

Mind you, the 306 Maxi had traction control and was spectacular. Traction control should not effect spectacle on a FWD too much. But on a RWD it would.

Here is one of my favourite videos.

Surely that is spectacular.

And here another one, not so spectacular, just wondering if someone reckognizes this stage Richard Burns Rally on PS2 - amazing how realistic this game is, not only driving physic.

Anyway I feel there are two misconceptions that may seem hard to believe but are .

One is FWD equals understeer is wrong. I owned a RWD car that was the worst understeerer while my FWD 205 rally car was the most beautiful oversteerer. Coincidentally also Jean Ragnotti in the example above, he won Monte carlo and Tour de Corse in the RWD R5 Turbo, but I found him much more spectacular later in FWD R11 Turbo and Clio.

The other is that 4x4 also has a huge effect under braking. It makes the car more settled full stop, not only for weight, the wheel as all connected.

For this I can take an example my road cars if allowed. I own my 405 T16 since nearly 10 years. Maybe it is because it combines 4x4 with visco diffs giving most power to the wheels with most grip, plus the Citroen type hydro-active suspension. Maybe it is my own driving ability. But in nearly 10 years I have never managed to work out how to play and slide this car. Its idiot proof to stubbornly on rails, never mind what I do. In between I had a 106 Sport and a 206 SW HDI 110. Even the 206 estate diesel I could throw around that it reminded me of my old 205 rally car. At the moment I am driving with a 308 SW diesel. It annoys me that I cant switch off ESP. Plus the car is of even worse configuration than my T16, even longer wheelbase, much more weight on the rear. And yet, at least in the rain I can play with it, I can unsettle the rear, despite ESP I get the front wheel to spin...

Another example maybe the Rallye Alsace-Voges 2007, we really had a wonderful display of different concepts. The S2000 cars braked and turned hairpins like circuit racers, that even groupN was more interesting. The N-GT Porsches I would probably have expected more the drivers, in Germany they are a show! The most spectacular car out there was without any doubt Alex Bengué in the Renault Mégane Turbo. Tho maybe he put on extra show for being course opening car. In the field, believe it or not, the most spectacular car was Cedric Roberts Clio R3! He really played it and drifted around, got unsettled under braking every and had to catch it. You really saw a driver working very hard indeed and playing the car. And for some reason I dont understand the Clio R3 even sounds beefier than those S2000 cars!

 Re: WRC S2000Turbo future by Chris B

7-Sep-08 09:38 PM 

Try the links again:

My fav

Compare RBR Mont Blanc stage:

 Re: WRC S2000Turbo future by Chris B

9-Sep-08 07:12 AM 

I wouldnt find the thread now, but last year in comparing car concepts that may be interesting for the future, I noted that for some time Eric Mauffrey lead the French Rally Championship in a 306 Maxi!

This may also have contributed to so many 306 Maxi being in the French championship that new cars are actually built.

Now, 2008, we have a deja vu of that situation.

This year strangely non of the 307 WRC drivers does a complete season. Privateer newcomer Eric Brunson in an ex-Sarrazin Subaru Impreza WRC was the surprise leader of the championship before Mont Blanc. In Rally Mont Blanc Alex Bengué retired his 307 WRC. Eric Brunson never received help Subaru and had to miss the last event. He still led the championship! His begging helped, he could start Mont Blanc, but Subaru gave him an absolute dog of a car. This means that now Arnaud Augouyard leads the championship in a 306 Maxi!!!!

Crazy, since in Mont bLanc there were 4 P307 WRC, Brunsons Impreza, several 206 WRC and more.

In our context there is a question mark of the quality of the drivers in S2000 cars. Well at least Benoit Roussellot is a former French champ. He didnt start Mont blanc tho. Ludovic Gal, who was disappointiung in his 207 S2000 all season, swapped to a 307 this time and led the rally for some time, giving even Alex Bengué a hard time! The fastest S2000 car was Philippe Mermet in the Punto, who was 13th when he retired. This means S2000 victory went to Philippe Greiffenberg in the 207 in 17th place overall.

I have never heard of Greiffenberg before. But the S2000 performances are put relation when you see that quite capable JWRC driver Michal Kosciuszko finished 18th overall in his usual Suzuki Swift S1600.

I think Kosciuszko manages better overall results in WRC, while as far as I remember the best S2000 result at WRC so far was 10th overall. So the Mont Blanc results seem about correct.

So here we go. In France we have a lack of S2000 cars as compared to a 207 S2000 a 306 Maxi is cheaper, more fun and can lead championships, while with an S2000 car you struggle to even get the top10

 Re: WRC S2000Turbo future by Ron@Work

12-Sep-08 02:06 AM 

And who won this ultra-competitive Rally Mont Blanc? A pensioner!

 Re: WRC S2000Turbo future by Chris B

12-Sep-08 03:40 AM 

I think I sent you an email about that? Quite a curiosity, Danny Snobeck had been sacked by his original team for bad performances, yet this was his 2nd win this season! It was also his teams 2nd win following Patrick Henry winning Alsace-Voges. Snobeck was lucky tho, as the fastest drivers Bengué, Gal and Mauffrey all had problems. Still surprising performance. Snobeck was 6th in Monte 82, 7th Monte 85, both times in a self prepared R5 Turbo. But that is 25 years ago, today Snobeck is 62 years old! At least a newcomer Arnaud Augoyard leads the championship with a 306 Maxi! In the championship both for the drivers and teams the top4 are seperated by 2 points!!!!

 Re: WRC S2000Turbo future by Radiv

8-Oct-08 05:40 PM 

What will happen next in the 2010 regs saga ?

 Re: WRC S2000Turbo future by AndyRAC

9-Oct-08 03:34 AM 

What on earth is going on? The regs are up in the air, the 'winter' calendar nonsense. What a shambles,...........the WRC was better 10 years ago, all the meddling and expensive cars have killed it.

 Re: WRC S2000Turbo future by Ron@Work

9-Oct-08 05:31 AM 

Anther good reason for Ford to pull out I reckon.

They could spend next year developing a Fiesta S2000, perhps run it in IRC, then think about rejoining WRC if and when they sort themselves out. Same goes for Suzuki.

 Re: WRC S2000Turbo future by Radiv

6-Nov-08 09:20 AM 

Impressive work by the comission

The FIA today announced their latest World Motorsport Council decisions, but have again failed to confirm the technical specifications for 2010 onwards. Although the FIA are still pushing for an "S2000+" type formula, they are expressing concern at the costs rising higher due to the protestations of some of the teams who think that the adition of a bolt on turbocharger and aero kit will not be workable. The statement the council and the 2009 WRC calendars follow

"From 2009, the number of mandatory events for a Manufacturer Team has been reduced to eight, reflecting the reduction in the number of calendar events.

The WMSC expressed its concern at the apparent potential increase in the cost of a World Rally car. The WRC Commission will therefore review the current direction of the proposed 2010 technical regulations, in order to ensure that the original decision to use no more than a removable, bolt-on kit to change a Super 2000 or Group N car a World Rally car is maintained."

So FIA, please decide the following

2010 - 2013 S2000 as the top class
2009 - 2013 Development and implementation of S2000+

Easy !!

 Re: WRC S2000Turbo future by AndyRAC

6-Nov-08 09:43 AM 

Simple, bring back the old Group A regs.

 Re: WRC S2000Turbo future by RonSkoda

6-Nov-08 10:45 AM 

As far as I know it is the teams and not the FIA causing trouble here. They say that the S2000 transmissions will not be able to take the extra torque of a turbo engine and so they need stuff like hydraulic gearshift and an active centre diff, which is pretty much what a WRCar is already.

If this really is true, perhaps they should downsize the engine to 1.4 or 1.6 litre turbo, then the torque should be a bit lower?

 Re: WRC S2000Turbo future by Gregor

6-Nov-08 10:49 AM 

Group A sound nice. The closer to a car on the street the better!

 Re: WRC S2000Turbo future by Radiv

6-Nov-08 01:57 PM 

And the manufacturers are saying the same in rally as in F1 for the moment - we would like to have more engineering freedom then the FIA proposal as of today.

 Re: WRC S2000Turbo future by RonSkoda

6-Nov-08 03:50 PM 

It's not as bad as F1 where they also want to introduce standard engines!

 Re: WRC S2000Turbo future by Chris B

7-Nov-08 05:04 AM 

The F1 standard engines idea is the best news for rallying I have heard in a long time! Well, it would make WRC the top motorsport, wouldnt it Or does anyone, FIA included, seriously believe Mercedes, BMW, Renault, Ferrari and the likes are supporting F1 if they are made to run i.e. Ford engines Why should Mercedes advertise Ford

It is weird airing so many new ideas and then not being able to decide. OK, it is actually good to throw in new ideas at an early state, so they can be discussed. But some of them are sold as facts and then comes the U-turn. I also note in that last meeting, rotation seemingly still stands, some details of 2009 calendar released calendar basically stands, but we still dont even know if 2010 is rotation or winter season or half season in preparation for a winter season.

Besides that winter season is rubbish. I would apreciate more snow events, but what will i.e. Martin Holmes do with his year books if the WRChampions are decided by May, all other rally championships at the end of the year. I dont know if I would buy a year book in spring, since it is end of year, nearing X-mas, everybody talks about championships.

Well, to the tech regs subject here

GroupA would be a brilliant idea, but only workable if 4x4 is ped, as is my suggestion since a while.

If you look back, WRCar regs were invented and worked much better initially because something big was wrong in groupA. What was wrong was that in groupA you needed at least 5000 road cars per annum to build a rally car on. And who exactly has a Lancia Delta sized, 2 litre 16v turbo 4x4 road car in their sales room, today even more so than 20 years agoHowever if we banned 4x4 and allowed 2WD turbo plus maybe 2WD V6 up to 3000cc, I could not name you a single manufacturer not having such vehicle! OK we still would then have cases like Opel Calibra 4x4 Turbo and Nissan Sunny GTI-R, that would never be competitive. But I actually thought this was a beauty of groupA. If Nissan is so clever to build an interwarmer rather than an intercooler their cars, then groupA rallying should either stop them selling such rubbish or display this genius brainstorm in public! It means if a car keeps winning rallies, it is not only because of money or clever team, but to a huge degree because the base product you can buy is excellent!

Meanwhile what is going on with S2000+T

I cannot understand the worries of FIA and manufacturers here, because adding a turbo would mean the engines get their compression through turbo boost rather than compression ratio and revs. This in return means an engine that gets a turbo bolted on, is cheaper to engineer and more reliable.

I can see the manufacturers worry only as you cant simply bolt on a turbo to an existing atmo engine. It can be done somehow, as i.e. my 405 T16 uses a late 405 MI16 306 S16 engine plus turbo, and similar would apply to most turbo road cars. But if you dont lower revs and compression ratio of the atmo engine, just adding a turbo will end in immediate fireworks. If in an S2000 you have a compression ratio of 121 at 8500rpm, adding a turbo with 2 bar boost and you have the compression ratio of a diesel!

In return, I would not at all like to see a solution without turbo. Apart on the road for economic reasons we see ever more turbos. Atmo engine engineering is much more difficult and expensive than an engine that gets its compression through boost. This surely is part of the reason why in IRC 2008 we saw an utter Peugeot domination. in an S2000+T formula it would be dead easy to add a sealed air restrictor - as is already done in WRC - plus a sealed waste gate that simply would not allow more than 2bar, and bingo, we have an easy to control, level playfield.

I can see the complaint of manufacturers that current transmissions would not be able to take the turbo torque, plus the aero kit talk.... The manufacturers should tell one reason why they cant fit another aero kit in 5min! Plus is that actually that important

On the transmissions I have to say a word pro FIA and contra the manufacturers That adding a turbo to S2000 means we need active differentials and a hydraulic clever gearbox is utter rubbish! Did the groupA Delta, first gA Celicas, Legacy RS, Galant VR4 have hydraulic gearboxes and active diffs Nope! Did they have a broken transmission every 3 stages Apart the Subaru, nope! In groupB Peugeot 205 T16 and Audi Quattro sent 500BHP through their transmissions, yet in those monster groupB days we did not even know what a sequential gearshift was! Yet as far as I remember John Haugland did not win 40 WRC events outright in his Skoda 130RS because after 5 stages all monster cars had retired. So dont tell me it cant be done today! If you tell me it is because we have so much more grip today, well, then lets start right there!!!!

Besides the atmo cars have a peak power ta only 8500rpm, I remember Peugeot could go to a 4-speed gearbox on the 307 WRC, the same Peugeot team needed a 7-speed gearbox for the 306 Maxi! Such granted turbo transmissions need to be able to take more torque load, on other ways they are actually simpler than atmo transmissions must be! Maybe there is a compromise possible to one gearbox that works for both cars, S2000 and S2000+T. And if this is a compromise with slight down sides, since it is a custom gearbox it is the same for everyone!

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