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 Re: WRC S2000Turbo future by Radiv

23-Nov-08 02:50 AM 

Good idea Ron !!



 Re: WRC S2000Turbo future by Chris B

23-Nov-08 06:58 AM 

Hmm, I also like the idea with replacing PWRC and JWRC for WRC2 with R-Class cars.

I understand the votes for keeping WRCars. Not trying to offend anyone. The reason I did not vote for WRCars is their price, which must be a key reason why there is not enough compeitition. If as a fan the price doesn't matter and I ignore that, I still find a Focus or C4 WRC more interesting than an S2000 car. OK; the WRCars are not spectacular, but if we narrowed the transmission and suspension technology and banned quick shift boxes, this would be another method of looking at them. Only then we have something similar to S2000+T anyway, only S2000+T is probably more radical, which is what we need. Also looking at the car models, on the road I actually prefer 207 and Grande Punto over C4 and Focus. Personal taste. But I can see that Subaru fans would vote for WRCars, as with an S2000 based formula I see Subaru even more buggered as they are now.

GroupN is outdated, I fully agree. It is since decades and will always stay a Mitsubishi one-makes cup, maybe with Subaru. To go dog boxes, lightened roofs and windows and composite material killed groupN even more. It helped Subaru to stop PWRC being a one-makes series, but even that is gone now, with the new Impreza being a van. I would not lose a single tear if groupN as it is now went under. It goes to my discussion with more road relation and more road market relation. The R-Classes fit that bill better, although R3 has too much freedom to replace gN. R3 is basically what groupA used to be. Looking at road market relation, I would droop N4 equals groupN over 2000cc and do N3. But since N3 is up to 2000cc and we have a turbo factor of x1.7, this would exclude all the exciting, modern hot hatches. So even N3 is dead. groupN is dead full stop. We need to ban 4x4 from groupN and groupN will be life and kicking again, which is what I had in my mind all the time!

Finally, to go S2000 for WRC just doesn't make sense, as Ron has pointed out. Although I would trust the FIA to commit suicide to their own series. If WRC has not better, faster cars than IRC, WRC will not survive. Then it really is only the name left. Then WRC goes with 2-car teams to Poland, Bulgaria, Cyprus and IRC lets their teams go to the strong marketing events, starting with Monte Carlo with night stages, a real Safari, San Remo, ending with RAC. IRC is the better series for teams and fans, as you don't have to sign up for all rounds, you can bring as many cars as you want and swap drivers. You have more TV and the better points system too. I can't see the WRC chosing S2000 as is run in IRC and everywherre else. But I can see IRC watching how S2000+T develops for a couple of years and then allow them.



 Re: WRC S2000Turbo future by AndyRAC

23-Nov-08 09:50 AM 

I can see no point in continuing with Group N, it is no longer relevant - Subaru v Mitsubishi, so what, who cares?
To be honest, I'm undecided on S2000 V S2000+, but I'd be inclined to go with the cheapest in the current financial climate. Adding expensive parts such as a Turbo and Rear wing makes no sense.
If I'm truly honest, I think the new cars should be based on their Road car, i;e like the old Group A regs, but not sure if this is possible, but the reason the Manufacturers are in it are to sell Road cars - so what is the point Rallying a 4WD car when you can't buy one in the showroom?
I would like to see an equivalency formula, which allows Turbos, N/A, 4WD, RWD, FWD - So if you have 4WD you have more weight and less BHP, e;g 250BHP, but if you have a 2WD car you have a light car and 300+BHP. Can't see this being allowed though.
The thing that makes me angry are the teams wanting hi-tech cars - what planet are they on? If they keep on like this there will be no WRC left.



 Re: WRC S2000Turbo future by RonSkoda

23-Nov-08 10:20 AM 

"If I'm truly honest, I think the new cars should be based on their Road car, i;e like the old Group A regs, but not sure if this is possible, but the reason the Manufacturers are in it are to sell Road cars - so what is the point Rallying a 4WD car when you can't buy one in the showroom?"

Ohhh, you've done it now Andy. I shortly expect Chris to propose to you. :D



 Re: WRC S2000Turbo future by AndyRAC

23-Nov-08 11:14 AM 

But it's ridiculous - with the old Group A rules, you could in theory go to a Showroom and order the following;

Ford Escort RS Cosworth
Toyota Celica GT-Four/ Turbo 4WD
Subaru Impreza 555
Nissan Sunny GTi-R
And there were more, now look at today;

Subaru Impreza STI

Ford, Citroen, Suzuki, etc don't do an equivalent car. Ford are bringing an RS car out, but in my view it's a copout, no more than an ST. 2.5L Turbo FWD?????

Does that make sense???



 Re: WRC S2000Turbo future by Chris B

23-Nov-08 11:47 AM 

"Ohhh, youve done it now Andy. I shortly expect Chris to propose to you. D"

Has he maybe I dont have to say too much, because I am talking about it since years. Even though I have a 4x4 road car myself, and currently I am very disappointed by my test car. Has modern engineering become that lazy for all the ESP and ABS electronics crap we have even on road cars I am convinced my 205 GTI had not that much wheelspin 20 years ago than that modern, ESP equipped 308 with similar power today! I am amazed how many situations I find my meanwhile historic age 405 is simply better than the all electronic new car! Still, there are things that annoy me with my 4x4 405 too, heavy steering, heavy clutch, if in town driving or for the fuel bill, it feels like a very heavy car.

This is maybe why on the road 4x4 has become rare. And in modern times with ESP and electronic traction control, 4x4 is not becoming more famous. In rallying terms it is also a question of spectacle and cost. I am bored of WRCars driving like on rails and how can you a budget formula in S2000 in which we have a very heavy, torque eating transmission and have to make major changes to the shell to accommodate 4x4!

In IRC and S2000, as much as I love IRC, I find it massively ironic that Fiat is forced to run the Abarth Grande Punto S2000 + 4x4 system and - turbo. The whole point of the Abarth brand is selling nippy, sporty, fast, fun versions of Fiat road cars. There is not a single Abarth car you can buy with 4x4, there is not a single Abarth car you can buy without turbo! The whole philosophy and point of the Abarth range is light, FWD, turbo charged petrol cars! For this - and Abarth is only one example of many - to creeate S2000 with the purpose to promote such cars on rallies -often brutal lottery gravel that is better to promote Land Rovers- kids at school would be told "Missed subject, fail class!"

Even though early groupA was a Lancia show for another flaw in the rules - or maybe indeed as an early proof that 4x4 should have been banned - for me groupA was a mega show! It was not only marketing of sporty road cars, it was a test bed for manufacturers and customers. The rally results had a bearing if the base car was good or not, and that is how it should be! If Nissan is so clever to locate a turbo intercooler in such way that it is basically an interwarmer, then they have to live with this stupidity also in rallying and the public should whitness it all!

However, beyond Mitsubishi and Subaru, who makes a 4x4 turbo car in the according configuration today What happened to AndyRACs list and more, Mazda 323, Galant VR4, 405, R21.... And who has a 2WD petrol turbo hatchback in their range On latter I could probably tell you 15 manufacturers straight off my head! We could have a relatively cheap, controllable and especially very competitive series if we returned to groupA and groupN if we banned 4x4!!!! It would be cheaper and more fun than even S2000 too! Like the links I posted before, watch Duez in the N-GT Porsche. Imagine a turbo FWD Focus RS groupA or a turbo FWD Abarth Grande Punto groupA in rally Sweden. Yes, it would be weird for us fans for a start, with these things struggling to move. But we would have drivers fighting their cars, and that is what we want! They can still reach speeds, but then again are more unsettled under braking - again what we want to see! And it is the same for everybody. It is like the discussion we had when groupB was banned. Sure the groupA cars was much slower on the straights than these 600BHP monsters. But in corners they were as quick and even more fun, and that is what matters!

The other point

"To be honest, Im undecided on S2000 V S2000+, but Id be inclined to go with the cheapest in the current financial climate. Adding expensive parts such as a Turbo and Rear wing makes no sense."

That is the joke about it. It is not like a turbo costs 100,000 Euros, is it Especially if it is a custom part. And the engine itself actually needs less tuning, plus we have an easy control measure in air restrictor and boost limits. I worded before that I could imagine, depending how S2000+T develops, that IRC takes this on too after some observation period. The reason I said this, I am convinced in atmo S2000 the richer or more factory backed teams as i.e. Peugeot will press on with engine development, here another 10NM, there more response, there lighter material..... With a custom turbo with boost and air intake limits, what is the point I really believe S2000+T after a few years of development is NOT actually dearer than S2000 alone, yet S2000+T will be more fun. So why should we not take it

A different matter is about the spoiler. Do we need the spoiler kit S2000 alone has a spoiler kit! If future WRCars are meant to look more spectacular than their S2000 sisters, I would be for it -not at any cost, but when Volkswagen claimed interst, FIA signalled that the max width of 1800mm will stay solid. That means also the aero kit is not that different, probably not needed after all, will hardly cost more. So once again, if the conversion S2000 to S2000+T can be done for something 20,000Euro, and I would not know why it should cost more, than the added fun is definitely worth it!



 Re: WRC S2000Turbo future by Radiv

25-Nov-08 10:57 AM 

I say again, here are my two cent:
2010 - 2013 S2000 as the top class
2009 - 2013 Development and implementation of S2000+.

We keep it simple for now, and we get a S2000+ formula that builds on experience !



 Re: WRC S2000Turbo future by Ron@Work

11-Dec-08 02:05 AM 

Autosport today reports the teams have finally come up with a package for 'S2000T' for about £25,000 which includes a turbo, an assisted gearshift mechanism, a rear wing and "a few other parts"

Should be confirmed Friday.

Good news.



 Re: WRC S2000Turbo future by AndyRAC

11-Dec-08 03:08 AM 

Don't like the sound of 'Assisted gear mechanism' and a few other parts. £25,000 doesn't sound too bad though.



 Re: WRC S2000Turbo future by Ron@Work

11-Dec-08 07:10 AM 

Now they just need to get the promotion and the calendar right, and get rid of the stupid tyre and 'sweeping' rules, and then WRC might be on the way back up, if the economic crisis blows over...



 Re: WRC S2000Turbo future by Radiv

11-Dec-08 08:12 AM 

Did not see anything on S2000+, but on S2000 as the new WRCar.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/72436



 Re: WRC S2000Turbo future by Radiv

11-Dec-08 09:13 AM 

If this will be the decision from FIA tomorrow, what is most likely to happen ?

Which of the current manufacturers will pull out: Ford, Citroen, Suzuki or Subaru ?

Will more manufacturers build S2000 cars to be ready in 2010 ?

Will manufacturers that already have cars, buildt locally, or by a tuningfirm buy the rights to those cars to get a head start ?

Like;
Polo
MG
Auris
Satria
Corsa
Fiesta

Interesting times ahead !



 Re: WRC S2000Turbo future by AndyRAC

11-Dec-08 09:58 AM 

Who have S2000 cars?

The Fiesta is an old model.
Maybe the current WRC Manufacturers will leave - Subaru, can't see them sticking around.

Interesting news mind you.



 Re: WRC S2000Turbo future by RonSkoda

11-Dec-08 10:06 AM 

I d the other thread because I didnt want to duplicate too much...

If you read the article carefully, it mentions the kit of parts that will be added to the S2000 to make a WRC Turbo, wing e.t.c.

The only thing they have ped is the Group N car as a base. I have to say I think this is a sensible move. A classic N4 car is totally different to a S2000. You cant incoporate N4 cars just to keep Subaru happy.

Developing an S2000 car should not be too expensive for Subaru. Most of the chassis can be the same as the current WRC. Only the engine will be different.



 Re: WRC S2000Turbo future by Radiv

11-Dec-08 11:02 AM 

It had been expected that the next generation of World Rally Car would be based on both Super 2000 and Group N cars - with a kit of parts being added to both to the new WRC.

Yes, but the only place the kit is mentioned is they talk about the previous plan. Now it seems that the way ahead is S2000 only, and the only place you can read something more this is Tomorrows World Motor Sport Council meeting is expected to announce that the future of the World Rally Car will be based on Super 2000 machinery alone.

I am not a native speaker, but based on could be interpreted that it might come a kit.

In the printed version of Autosport someone says there is an article on the S2000+, saying something about a 25000 euro kit, that includes Turbo, wing and some transmission parts.

But I guess this article is newer, and is leaked to Autosport.

Will be very interessting to see what they decide on tomorrow !!!


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