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 Re: WRC S2000Turbo future by Radiv

13-Dec-08 07:25 AM 

Well, the latest WRC cars I think has more than 350BHP, even Gr N are above 300 are they not ?



 Re: WRC S2000Turbo future by RonSkoda

13-Dec-08 02:16 PM 

It will be interesting to see how this all works in practice.

I hope the FIA don't drag their feet too much more so teams could actually start testing these cars soon.

There are a few worries:

- Will S2000 transmissions cope with extra torque (XTrac say their transmission is prepared for this, Sadev I'm not so sure)

- Engines; will it really be as simple as bolting on a turbo or will engines need more changes than just inlet and exhaust manifolds

- Turbo is supposed to be quite cheap, aero bits too but what will the "assisted gear shift" and "other bits" cost in reality?

There could be something in Chris' opinion about modern gearshifts making the boring sounding WRCars. But actually the Citroen is quite nice. The biggest culprit is the Focus which sonds like it has sponge cake stuck up it's exhaust. Also, the cars just seem to have too much linear power at any revs. They are very efficient but there is no vioence to them at all, hence they don't look exciting at all.



 Re: WRC S2000Turbo future by Radiv

14-Dec-08 10:54 AM 

Poll:
Who will be the first factory/team to start testing with S2000+ according to new FIA Regs ?

And who will be the first to homologate a S2000+ ?



 Re: WRC S2000Turbo future by Chris B

14-Dec-08 01:19 PM 

That is an interesting question and I am looking forward to your guesses. I can't put my finger on it, but I guess first will be a team that currently has an S2000- car.



 Re: WRC S2000Turbo future by RonSkoda

14-Dec-08 01:51 PM 

I suppose it depends just how "bolt on" the kit really is and when it will be available. I'm sure all the current S2000 manufacturers will at least try it out.



 Re: WRC S2000Turbo future by Radiv

15-Dec-08 05:57 AM 

I have haerd/read that Abarth already a while ago have bolted on a turbo on the Grande Punto, but dont remember where.

Will be interessting to see if it will be one of the small tuningfirms like Rne georges or MEM that will be first or that one of the big ones either from S2000 or WRC that will make the effort to get ahead of the rest ?



 Re: WRC S2000Turbo future by Gregor

15-Dec-08 11:06 AM 

""- Engines; will it really be as simple as bolting on a turbo or will engines need more changes than just inlet and exhaust manifolds""

For the turbo I would assume there will be plenty of changes that can be made, but I would like to know what would be allowed. Depending on the strength of the block the compression ratio would need lowering. With such light pressure assumed for the new WRC spec I would guess this will not be needed or allowed.

Other than that there is a galaxy of tuning options that can make a big difference in power and longevity. A friend of mine has made a new career for himself doing this with Subarus. But how much programming will be allowed? Do S2000 cars or the new WR cars use a standard engine control module?

Locally we use an inlet restriction of 34MM on the highest class of rally cars, and anything downstream of that is a matter of budget and expected durability. I would guess an S2000 motor is expensive to start, and tuning it for a turbo will be another layer of cost. It would be nice, however, to allow drivers to choose their own settings -trading a little torque for horsepower and back- just like one would a car's suspension.



 Re: WRC S2000Turbo future by Chris B

15-Dec-08 01:49 PM 

Greogor has a very good point. I find it a bit of a waste to have a competitive S2000 car as a base of a future WRCar. Indeed at least the compression needs lowering. The beauty of the turbo is in fact that compression comes from boost and you can fiddle and raise power a lot without opening the engine. Hence a competitive atmo engine is much dearer to develop and make reliable, when all that is not actualy needed with a turbo.

Radiv: "I have haerd/read that Abarth already a while ago have bolted on a turbo on the Grande Punto, but dont remember where."

Between manifold and exhaust? Joke!



 Re: WRC S2000Turbo future by Chris B

17-Dec-08 07:15 PM 

Actually on my previous complaint in here, the quick gearboxes stealing us the turbo sound sensation, I was comparing the Focus WRC to a DAF Variomatic. This is ill justice, the DAF Variomatic is even more exciting than the Focus, at least it can slide a little!

To those who don't know of this old car, the idea is actually genius! The transmission changes ration continuously, and such there are no gearchanges, engine always in optimum revs.

This is how it works:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R8AzqtomwD0&feature=related

This is the rsult. Genius it may be, but something missing, isn't it?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ub28n29N9FM&feature=related



 Re: WRC S2000Turbo future by Martini Lancia

21-Dec-08 08:38 PM 

"Greogor has a very good point. I find it a bit of a waste to have a competitive S2000 car as a base of a future WRCar. Indeed at least the compression needs lowering. The beauty of the turbo is in fact that compression comes boost and you can fiddle and raise power a lot without opening the engine. Hence a competitive atmo engine is much dearer to develop and make reliable, when all that is not actualy needed with a turbo."

Ever since this announcement was confirmed I have been thinking about how this will work in practice and I cannot get away the conclusion that it is window-dressing that isnt meant to be practically applicable. As you guys rightly point out, the compression ratio will need to a lot - this however is merely the start of it. The reality is that naturally-aspirated and charged engines are totally different internally - turbo motors have to have upgraded pistons, cranks, casings etc. Moreover, because of the different compression ratios, turbo and NA engines have fundamentally different combustion chamber characteristics - you just cant shove a turbo on an engine designed for natural aspiration and expect it to work anything like as efficiently as a cylinder head design which has been optimised for supercharging.

Basically, what all this means is that if the WRC actually survives long enough for all this to take effect, you are going to have two different types of S2000s - those that are designed simply as S2000s and to be run in IRC and national championships and so on, and a class of base S2000s designed explicitly for conversion to + spec. Reading through the rule changes it strikes me that they appear to be a five-year-olds wishlist and have been drawn up by someone who really has no idea of the practical engineering realities involved

The econoclypse has set in stone the notion that there is absolutely no chance of Fiat or anyone else upping their motorsport commitment until AT LEAST 2011. I have said it before here and I see no reason to change my view, either IRC or WRC will wither on the vine and die, and the remaining one will become the de facto official championship. I dont think I need to point out which I think it will be. As for S2000+, I would be surprised if it ever gets off the ground. I am convinced that an IRC running the current class of cars is the future for top-flight rallying.



 Re: WRC S2000Turbo future by RonSkoda

22-Dec-08 03:55 AM 

The new promoter for WRC doesn't take affect until 2011 either. All seems too little too late.

The one thing I can imagine happening is another rule change being proposed about 4 months into 2009 - that being that current WRCars could instead be "downgraded" to use a control transmission.



 Re: WRC S2000Turbo future by Chris B

22-Dec-08 04:58 AM 

And the new promoter may be even further away. Armin Schwarz announced yesterday that he has withdrawn his bid for the position and that he expects others to follow his route, even North One / ISC. In short it seems from his words that the new promoter has no influence on new rules and calendar and has to live with it. Don't know what else was in the document, but like this we are no better off than now with ISC, never mind who the new promoter.



 Re: WRC S2000Turbo future by AndyRAC

22-Dec-08 06:26 AM 

Not a surprise - the FIA were never going to allow for a 'Bernie' type Promoter. Look what happened when DR wanted a similar role - the FIA made it clear it was their Championship. So he gave up....



 Re: WRC S2000Turbo future by RonSkoda

22-Dec-08 01:53 PM 

I don't understand what the point is in this "promoter"

Will the promoter also be the one who owns the media rights? And if so, why aren't ISC doing this already?



 Re: WRC S2000Turbo future by roowrc

26-Dec-08 04:13 AM 

The S2000+T regs really have me worried.

Obviously, the new regs are based on the current Super2000 rally cars, I get that bit. Now, a new manufacturer that wants to enter the highest level of the sport, is expected to produce, not only a Super2000 Rally Car in order to satisfy homologation, but then also develop a S2000+T car? Two different rally cars, in order to compete in one championship? Where is the cost reduction in that?

Secondly, the FIA reckon the new regs will be as easy as bolting on a turbo and rear wing and some other bits and pieces. As was mentioned above, simply adding a turbo onto a naturally aspirated engine isn't a simple task by any means. Compression ratios, component strength, transmission...etc etc. Sounds like a lot of stuffing about.

Wouldn't it be easier to develop a turbo car from scratch, like the current WRC regs?
Rather than build a naturally aspirated car from scratch, and then modify it to turbo?

If the FIA want the WR cars to be a 4x4 turbo, it should be designed to be that way from the start. The added burden that a new manufacturer faces in building TWO new rally cars, seems to counteract the cost-cutting aspirations the FIA hope to achieve.


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