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 Re: WRC S2000Turbo future by Radiv

26-Dec-08 10:56 AM 

The good thing on the other hand if they are able to keep this simple, all manufacturers will have cars both for WRC and PWRC and national championships.

If they are able to make the + kit to be Cylinder head with turbo and exhaust, and the wings, but can anyone specify in detail what the WRC kit will consist of ? What has been decided by FIA ?



 Re: WRC S2000Turbo future by Gregor

26-Dec-08 02:40 PM 

True; since the new WRC car can only be used for WRC events, requiring one to build an S2000 car first makes some sense as they can be sold to other teams and used in other series. And perhaps the turbo kit involves new internals, cylinder head, and electronics to handle the turbo. I mean, it will just have to do this in order to have the turbo work without breaking something.

I still agree with Chris that kit cars in general aren't the best idea, but that is already established and all we are left to debate are the details.



 Re: WRC S2000Turbo future by Chris B

26-Dec-08 04:59 PM 

I very much see the point of roowrc. And it has been aired before and well described by ML. I personally find it a waste, because the beauty of the turbo is that efficient tuning can be achieved without actually opening the engine. This cost saving asset we throw over board in having to a competitive normally aspirated car first.

Silly that, though as long as we base cars on free kit car rules and we alter whole floor pans and rear areas and rear axles to accommodate a 4x4 drive train, we will never have a cost efficient formula.

The asset of the FIA-WRC attempt is that we have 2 cars at once. Even if we have to change the whole engine to convert a WRCar S2000 and vice versa, it still is possible even for private tuners like MSD to perform this conversion and enter the other series, which could be a profit for both.

Generally I do not understand some of the thinking of the FIA. News for 2009 is that S2000 minimum weight is raised to 1200kg. This is the 2nd time in 2 years the minimum weight is raised. We already allow groupN dog gearboxes, lightened roof and glass, composite materials. Now they are talking of allowing in groupN a non standard turbo and more tuning and material freedom.
- This all is done because the FIA wants to compare S2000 with groupN. I do not understand how a specially built 4x4 drive train in a free kit car could ne comparable with a production car. This is silly. If they keep changing cars eligible for PWRC at this rate, I see in 2010 Anton Alen will start the PRUDUCTION WRC in a Lancia Delta S4!



 Re: WRC S2000Turbo future by Radiv

27-Dec-08 04:18 AM 

Just to pick up a couple of points:

The variomatic is a gegious system I used for many years living up north, driving snowmobiles. They use the same system.

Sound is a personal preference thing. And just to have said it Chris B; I prefer the high rev racecar sound of the S2000 to the WRC and GR N Turbo sound any day.

I feel that a competition car shall sound and smell like one as well !



 Re: WRC S2000Turbo future by Chris B

27-Dec-08 09:49 AM 

Yes, the idea behind the Variomatic is great!

I admit sound is matter of taste and not everyone likes the monster popping and banging and flames of Audi Quattro, Escort Cosworth or Impreza 555. On the gN Lancer I find myself it sounds silly, because it is just crackles and no engine note to go with it. But even if the atmo sound is desired, I personally would prefer the dark, powerful noises of Escort BDA, BMW M3 or 306 Maxi, not even starting on V6 or V8 cars. Is it really only me who finds the S2000 cars sound cheap and struggling, aka not powerful at all, even compared to other atmos like the BDA? I even love the bark of an angry BDA or 306 Maxi, but even my fav S2000 car, the 207, sounds like an utterly out of breath 1200cc boy racer Polo in comparison.



 Re: WRC S2000Turbo future by RonSkoda

28-Dec-08 04:31 AM 

Agree on the Grp N Lancers, they just sound like someone dropped a match in a firework store.

I think lots of people will love the sound of the Quattro, Impreza e.t.c. but in modern times the Impreza even lost it's distinctive sound... I wonder whether having a cheaper, control turbo might improve things in this respect?



 Re: WRC S2000Turbo future by RonSkoda

28-Dec-08 05:21 AM 

ChrisB wrote:

"Generally I do not understand some of the thinking of the FIA. News for 2009 is that S2000 minimum weight is raised to 1200kg. This is the 2nd time in 2 years the minimum weight is raised. We already allow groupN dog gearboxes, lightened roof and glass, composite materials. Now they are talking of allowing in groupN a non standard turbo and more tuning and material freedom.
- This all is done because the FIA wants to compare S2000 with groupN. I do not understand how a specially built 4x4 drive train in a free kit car could ne comparable with a production car. This is silly. If they keep changing cars eligible for PWRC at this rate, I see in 2010 Anton Alen will start the PRUDUCTION WRC in a Lancia Delta S4!"

I agree. This is just silly. As we spoke before, trying to equalise these formulas is just ridiculous, I thought even the FIA admitted this with the latest S2000Turbo rules?

At the moment, I do not have too much of a big problem with the price of an S2000. Sure, it is not cheap, but it is maybe halfway between the price of a Grp N Car and a WRCar, but also somewhere in betweeen on performance. But if they start slowing the S2000s down by just adding weight, then it is just a waste of money. Not only that but it will make them look less agile than before.

Stop meddling FIA!



 Re: WRC S2000Turbo future by Nordschleife

3-Jan-09 05:39 PM 

Morrie Chandler has spoken to Motorsport News:

At the end of the day we've lost four cars but we've got to see what we can do to save costs. It's not a crisis but it puts the emphasis on what we've been doing over the recent period by looking at how costs can be reduced across the cars and the championship.

There's a directive from the World Council that the kit must be simple and must be relatively cheap. What we're saying is it's in a box, and you can bolt it on. If I've got a Super 2000 car and I'm doing national rallies in New Zealand, for example, and I decide I want to have a go at the WRC when it comes to my country then I will be able to hire the kit, bolt it on my car, do the WRC round, take the kit off my car, pay the hire fee and carry on. It needs to be that simple. That's the approach the technical people have been asked to take and that's the mentality. The kit should total between 20-30,000 Euros [around £25,000].

Cutting costs from the cars has been supported by the WMSC but we need to go a step further and look at the events themselves. This could not only help the competitors but organisers are going to face a lot of challenges in financing their events so we need to help them."

http://www.rallybuzz.com/chandler-wrc-reduce-costs/



 Re: WRC S2000Turbo future by roowrc

4-Jan-09 01:44 AM 

"I admit sound is matter of taste and not everyone..."

Just as well rally fans aren't deciding on what the top rally formula should be...we'd be worse than the FIA. ;)

Personally, I love the sounds of almost all types of rally cars. Although Australia doesn't have WRC cars anymore, there is still plenty of variety around. At one of my local rallies last year, it was also a round of the Aust. Rally Championship. Although the field was small there was:
S2000, Grp N, Grp NP, showroom cars, modified and classics. A great range for everybody and very enjoyable... apart from the weather. :P

[url]http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=Zz4cgEfkRq8[/url]
[url]http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=7RJP2R1n2B0[/url]

My main gripe with S2000 is that I don't think it should be the top formula for world rallying.

In my view, when I look at a world rally car, it bears some resemblance to the road car it's derived from. The more a rally car has in common with its road car, the more the consumer can relate to it. Subaru is a prime example of course.

Now, almost all manufacturers employ turbocharging on a wide variety of vehicles. And turbos are becoming more popular in recent times due to the consumer wanting more power, but also more fuel efficiency.

So if S2000 was approved as the top formula for rallying, it would be quite hypocritical wouldn't it?

Especially since rally cars have almost always being closely related to their road car counterparts. BDA Escorts, Quattro, 205, Lancia Delta, Celica, Lancer, Impreza...



 Re: WRC S2000Turbo future by Chris B

4-Jan-09 08:55 AM 

Here the links again, hope now they work

httpau.youtube.comwatchvZz4cgEfkRq8
httpau.youtube.comwatchv7RJP2R1n2B0

One of the most interesting aspects or proofs of this video comes in the 2nd half of the 2nd link. There are 2 Toyota S2000, then a Toyota groupN prototype - here prototype meaning it has running gear of another Toyota turbo 4x4 model but in technology standards it is groupN, 2 or 3 cars later a gN Mitsubishi Lancer TME and then some an atmo Mitsubishi Mirage - known as Colt to most of us.

If you compare these cars, the S2000 ones are for my taste the most boring, yet they are probably the most expensive. The Toyota gN sounds better than the Toyota S2000. On the handling this video probably shows not a good corner and the quality of some of the drivers is questionable. But come the Lancer TME and you see how it unsettles under breaking, showing what probably the Toyota gN could have shown, that under breaking and cornering the S2000 cars are too perfect and such boring. And the Mitsubishi Mirage, although still light and tinny sound, it sounds better and louder than the Toyota S2000, proving that even for an atmo engine the S2000 dont sound very exciting. And all that despite the Australians taking it easy with them rules. I.e. the Ford Fiesta S2000 - not in this video - is higher tuned than a Euro S2000 and therefore is not allowed to start in any Euro competitions like IRC, ERC. For me the Fiesta S2000 is the best sounding - or the only decent sounding - S2000 car ever.

Other than that I fully agree with your lines, roowrc. There should be a road car relation and already - but not only - for that to have a non-turbo formula for top class rallying is an utter joke! And I can deliver more proofs that these links here that what the FIA, ISC and others are telling us since years, that turbo sounds more silent and less exciting than atmo must not be , nor are the turbos to blame for the current WRCar sound anticlimax.

To Nordschleife Thank you very much for this link of Morrie Chandlers thoughts and ideas.
- The basic idea is brilliant
- if anything -starting scratch with engine development- a turbo competition engine is less expensive than an atmo.

From here however we are at the discussion ML started before. If we start a competitive, fully developped S2000 engine, we have wasted the turbo engine development saving.

I mean to say that I can see it is possible to a turbo kit for little extra cost, plus making a WRCar interchangeable with an IRC and national championship car certainly has big merits. But this Morrie Chandler approach lacks technical expertise. If you rent such turbo kit and bolt it onto a fully developed, competitive, high revs, high compression atmo engine, you can return the remains of your engine in a post card sized envelope!

People running a World Class automobile championship seem to forget that a turbo engine s masses of torque and compression through the turbo charger, not the engine internals, this is in fact the beauty of a turbo - apart nice characteristics, efficiency and re-using waste energy, such making a turbo torquey, more interesting to drive, more econimic efficient - a turbo requires less engine development and as a by product such helps engine reliability.



Anyway, just recently I found this video of Didi Auriol testing the works Peugeot 206 WRC for Monte 2001. This car SOUNDS and LOOKS spectacular! OK, being a test, maybe Didi played a little more than he would do on stages. In pops and bangs and fire spitting this car is no comparison to the Monster Audi. -this alone is part of the aspect, the short wheel base wide Quattros won 2 rallies in 3 seasons, with so little success, why is it a legend till today Because it is the spectacle that makes people come or tune in to the show! - the 206 in this video also has already the unspectacular fast gear changes, yet on lift off it has still popping and banging in an exciting monster way!

I further note in this following video link, that this is still a 206 WRC Evo2, that had only minor changes to the Evo1, unlike the later Evo3. In those days I was twice at a WRC event as a guest of this team without having to work on event. Enjoying the stages to the full, curiously I found the dry asphalt Tour de Corse 1999 very spectacular, the powder gravel Rally Finland 2003 appeared to me like boring cars on rails! This means something must have gone wrong with all them clever electronics in between.

This 206 WRC of the earlier generation in full spec Peugeot Sport sold for 375,000 Euros. The 206 Evo3 was more expensive. With the 307 WRC we reached the 600,000 Euro mark. A current Ford Focus WRC costs over 700,000 Euros! For comparison, the latest evo S2000 cars by Avarth and Peugeot are well in the 300,000 Euro bracket. Adding the turbo kit, if you rent it or whatever, is not the budget problem at all. A modern S2000 car is already close in price to this 2001 206 WRC, yet the S2000 car is actually more boring! And we have not yet started letting the best engineers in competitive World Championship rallying lose on this kit car formula! I herewith predict - not for the first time - that in 5 years time an S2000 will cost as much as a WRCar today, turbo kit not included!

httpwww.youtube.comwatchv7MG23W-ggwA



 Re: WRC S2000Turbo future by Chris B

4-Jan-09 08:56 AM 

roowrc:
http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=Zz4cgEfkRq8
http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=7RJP2R1n2B0

Didi in 206:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7MG23W-ggwA



 Re: WRC S2000Turbo future by RonSkoda

4-Jan-09 04:49 PM 

Re: the S2000 sound, the Fabia sounded awesome on Barum (video below) but they had to change the exhaust since.. Reason? The car was too loud for FIA rules! So, I think they need to change the rules!

Here is the link, might be best to turn off the "HD" option, unless you have a very fast internet connection: http://www.dailymotion.com/relevance/search/irc/video/x6kl8n_rallye-barum-irc-2008_auto



 Re: WRC S2000Turbo future by roowrc

4-Jan-09 08:20 PM 

"Didi Auriol testing the works Peugeot 206 WRC for Monte 2001. This car SOUNDS and LOOKS spectacular!

I found the dry asphalt Tour de Corse 1999 very spectacular...Rally Finland 2003 appeared to me like boring cars on rails! This means something must have gone wrong with all them clever electronics in between." ChrisB


Totally agree. The WRC cars not only sounded great in the early WR-era, but they were also driven in a spectacular fashion, because at the time, that was the way to win stage times.

I think the development of the differentials had a lot to do with the straight-lining. They made the cars faster, as the diffs sought optimum traction, straight line as much as possible, no sliding. I started watching WRC full time in 2002, and by 2004 the driving style had completely changed, and the driving style was no near as spectacular.
Also by this time, manufacturers were beginning to off, and despite some limits being imposed on differentials, there were only three manufacturers remaining in works status by 2006 including Citroen semi-works effort.


"For me the Fiesta S2000 is the best sounding - or the only decent sounding - S2000 car ever."

It was too loud when it first began rallying. P Micheal Guest had the intercom turned right up, and he was still struggling to hear the notes! It was also uncompetitive and unreliable, which was a shame.

I should point out also that the Tarmac Rally I posted in the video, was the first full-tarmac round of the Aust Rally Championship in over thirty years. Being only Stage 3 of the rally, it is understandable that many gravel drivers were still finding their feet in the greasy conditions.

-

Now, back to S2000 for a moment. I should point out Im not against the proposed S2000 Turbo kit, its just that I cant see it working as easily as the FIA think it will be. If it works, brilliant. If it doesnt, theres a problem.

I suppose the bolt on kit is similar in a way to converting a Group N car to Group A specification.



 Re: WRC S2000Turbo future by MANU87

5-Jan-09 07:50 AM 

The S2000Turbo are the future of the WRC ......... lower costs, more houses and above all, more accessibility to the world and more pilots who may aspire to win the rally in short !!!!!! more battles and more entertainment !!!!!!! I support the new "WRC "!!!!!!



 Re: WRC S2000Turbo future by m4d-mike

5-Jan-09 02:53 PM 

i think some looking on the bright side here is in order.
1 we will have at least double or triple the number of manufacturers

2 cars will be s2000 plus a bit of power so they will be a little more entertaining to watch than s2000

3 effectively half the entry cost so maybe mattie rantanen, francois duval, mark higgins and guy wilks will actually be able to afford an occasional entry and with these guys in the mix it should be good to watch.

4 more paid seats will appear so more drivers will be out to impress so maybe just maybe the good old days of makinnen mcrae sainz and burns fighting for a title woll return,

and to be honest if the competitive element is fixed i would be happy cos at the moment we all just watch loeb blast off the line and cruise to a finish while every body else struggles to get outta their own way.

bring on wrc 2010


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