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 Re: WRC S2000Turbo future by Chris B

5-Jan-09 05:54 PM 

The last few posts do have positive and correct points.

Yeah, that was great when we had the 4-way title battle McRae-Mäkinen-Burns-Sainz in that order going in the last round in 2001. One year later, 2002, a 5th guy, Grönholm won the title. In that year we had 4 different manufacturers and 7 different drivers winning rallies. It was that year when the FIA thought we have to change points systems etc because Grönholm domination was too boring, the beginning of decissions us rally fans did not understand. Today it's hard to even remember we had such exciting competition.

"and to be honest if the competitive element is fixed i would be happy cos at the moment we all just watch loeb blast off the line and cruise to a finish while every body else struggles to get outta their own way."

This is why I would have loved to see Loeb start Monte. I would have loved to see if Loeb is really that much better than anybody else, or just lacking competition in WRC. I believe latter, but will we ever know?

 Re: WRC S2000Turbo future by blatant

7-Jan-09 00:34 AM 

I must say, I am a little concerned with the parallel series that are now running in the IRC and the WRC. As has been discussed at length on these forums, the IRC has made many right moves, including points nomination and scoring, the diversity and character of some of the classic rallies and the cost-effectivness.
On the other hand, the WRC is still the premier category (discuss!), with a long history and where all the great drivers and cars strutted their stuff.
I do worry though that this dilution of effort could see a decline for both series. As it stands at the moment, the WRC is in the worst shape of its life, and the IRC is making positive decisions about its future. But when (if it ever happens), the WRC changes to S2000 or whatever, will we not see two essentially identical championships running at the same time.
I always think of the ChampCar split ten years ago. From a series that was strong, popular and well-supported, it fought for ten years, with both series being sub-par. The recent amalgamation has come too late, with NASCAR now the pre-eminent series in the states.
Can there be two international rally championships running at the same time? Or will one sink without a trace. Or, and this is what I would love to see, can they both bring their best bits and combine for a truly butt-kicking series?

 Re: WRC S2000Turbo future by RonSkoda

12-Jan-09 04:02 AM 

According to Malcolm Wilson, in an interview just three days ago, the new regulations are far from finalised yet!:

"Those negotiations are still ongoing with the FIA at the moment and we have been working with them closely to try and find ways to cut costs as we go forward. The idea is to bring in that formula for 2010 but we will still be planning to use the Focus next year and you can still use WRC cars in 2010 - so it really becomes effective in 2011. Once the regulations are finalised, then we will look at what is the best route for Ford."

 Re: WRC S2000Turbo future by AndyRAC

12-Jan-09 04:12 AM 

Surely not another fudge by the FIA?

 Re: WRC S2000Turbo future by 306maxi

15-Jan-09 05:35 AM 

How dare you suggest such a thing! The FIA has ALWAYS been quick to get any changes to the WRC sorted ASAP which is why the series is going from strength to strength! I mean look at the quality of privateers we have these days. Years ago the Rautenbach's and Wilsons would have finished out of the top 10 and now they're biting at the heals of the factory drivers (from a few minutes back of course). Surely this means the WRC is at an all time high when privateers are doing so well!

306 maxi - Ira... ermm FIA Information Minister.

 Re: WRC S2000Turbo future by Radiv

22-Jan-09 08:08 AM 

According to Autosport it seems to be a good chance VW will dump their Dakar program, and start up a WRC program.

And I also read that Skoda was planning to stay in S2000 and not do S2000+ for a couple of years.

Might actually be a sensible VAG split, or ?

 Re: WRC S2000Turbo future by moogy

24-Jan-09 03:20 PM 

With the mitsubishi car still needing a fair bit of testing and such to get some reliability and performance i would of expected vw to stick with dakar as thier car is pretty good, if not for sainz mishap probably attaining a 1,2,3 finish though 1st 2nd is an achievement in itself.
I would prefer to see them in wrc though as its getting a bit sparse on manufacturers!

 Re: WRC S2000Turbo future by Chris B

25-Jan-09 07:08 AM 

Hmm, Dakar was never an event I liked. I will write about Dakar maybe in the Dakar thread I started. Does VW's 1-2 really prove much? The only car they have beaten was a Hummer made of plastic and converted to RWD, which in itself was a silly idea. To beat that is no achievement. Though Mitsubishi was a disappointment. Maybe VW should stay there. VW thinking from beating a RWD plastic Hummer in Dakar they are ready to take on Citroen, Ford, Loeb and the likes for me sounds as blindfolded as Suzuki saying from their JWRC successes, their army of cars being beaten only 4 times in 6 years by a privateer French car, they are going to be World Champions in 2009, or Hyundai similar. WRC will be a big eye opener for VW.

That said, I thought it was an extremely wild rumour, but sources from France are since half a year convinced Subaru would pull out and Prodrive is in contact with VW!

 Re: WRC S2000Turbo future by Spindle

28-Jan-09 10:19 AM 

I think the Monte 09 should put a spanner in the works of the s2000 turbo camp... Normally aspirated is the way..... Would 1970's rallying be legendary if a mk2 was turbo charged to 300hp? I think not..

Turbo's only add excitement if the power output is up and over 400hp with 4 wheel drive. Otherwise its all boring torque, yawns and the likes of manfred stohl.

My favourite memory is Patrik Sneijers in an M3 on the isle of man, compared to the cosworth`s he was in a different league of excitment, that`ll be the difference between S2000 and S2000 WRC

The monte provided a spectacle unseen for years, engines screaming, 3 manufactures on a level playing field, kris meeke coming to the fore..

Forget the turbo, lets hear the forests screaming again!

Von Spindle

 Re: WRC S2000Turbo future by Radiv

2-Feb-09 04:39 PM 

I think FIA has two options to keep prices away from skyrocketing:

1 Set a Max-price and enforce it by keeping the rules they work within simple. Watch the used prices, since they reflect the new price, and will show if money is payed under the table.
This is hard.

2. Look to the US and learn from Grand Am and NASCAR. Extremely simple tech, and a great show.

As I have said before, I believe Rally is in the entertainment business, and they need to keep it that way. FIA will have to choose the percentage split between engineering freedom for the factories (tech percentage) and show made by a lot of drivers in simple cars that most tuning firms can build making up the fun factor (entertainment factor)

Do you want to have a 70/30 or a 30/70 split btw the two - I am leaning against the latter.

To me this is about drivers mastering the beast, but a simple beast - leave most of the tech stuff to F1 - keep the driver focus in rally !

 Re: WRC S2000Turbo future by Chris B

3-Feb-09 04:00 AM 

This is all pointing towards my wish for more road car resemblance. A free kit car formula does not work! We have seen that in F2, in WRCars, in S1600 and now in S2000. In S2000 we have a price cap of 168,000 Euros, yet the cars are already at around 300,000 and we haven't even started with a turbo kit! It seems ironic - but typically FIA blindfoldedly missing the point in their decisions - What is the point arguing about a 30,000 Euros turbo kit, if the base S2000 car costs half a million once the real WRC factory teams got their hands on them? This is like saying "we can't have a turbo kit, because instead of 530,000 Euros the cars should only cost 500,000! Besides if the engines were designed straight as turbos and simple engine swapping allowed, the S2000+T car is most likely actually cheaper than an S2000 atmo!

 Re: WRC S2000Turbo future by RonSkoda

3-Feb-09 09:12 AM 

We have a category for road car relation, it is called Grp N!

Cost is not the only important factor, the cars have to also be good to watch to appeal. I like a proper competition car. Again it is all down to personal tastes, and I know not everyone will agree but for my money I prefer to watch a S1600, F2 KC, or S2000 to a R2/3 straight Grp A or traditional N4.

Top flight motorsport is very rarely cheap. They've tried to cut costs in F1 with the technical rules but it hasn't really worked, so now they are having to make teams shut their factories for weeks every year, ban testing e.t.c.

 Re: WRC S2000Turbo future by Chris B

4-Feb-09 04:29 AM 

GroupN road car relation? GroupN Impreza goes with a non standard dog box, composite materials, lightened roof and glass and now they want allow more freedom because FIA deams S2000 kit cars as groupN. GroupN without S2000 is boring because it is Subaru and Mitsu only, showing how much gN is missing market reality. Sorry, bad example. Besides I find in sound and action a Clio R3 more exciting than any S1600 any day.

 Re: WRC S2000Turbo future by Chris B

4-Feb-09 04:40 AM 

Just found a quote of Olivier Quesnel somewheere - German site - in which he states that he is very annoyed at Mosley asking to re-think the S2000+T formula. It is the same as last time Peugeot and Citroen pulled out, we u-turn a long confirmed rule without consulting the manufacturers. Quesnel's point about a WRC with S2000 without the +

- For Citroen marketing the future of road cars is everything turbo! They are not interested in marketing without turbo.

- In contrast to Ford(!!!!), thanks to the 207 S2000 Citroen could have an S2000 car ready for 2010. However for Quesnel there will never be the same car for both brands, Citroen does not want an S2000 car, because a Citroen S2000 car would be certain death, immediate stop of all activities with the Peugeot 207 S2000!

For these two reasons, if WRC turns S2000 only, Citroen is considering to stop. It would also mean Ford is to stop as they have no car ready. Mosley eventually succeeded killing WRC?

 Re: WRC S2000Turbo future by AndyRAC

4-Feb-09 04:41 AM 

GroupN has run out of control - it should be standard Production cars with added safety equipment and no more!! It's become ridiculous. And now they've raised the minimum weight of S2000 - WHY??? To level out with Imprezas & Lancers - WRONG!!
S2000 aren't GroupN cars - they are proper competition cars.

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