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 Re: WRC S2000Turbo future by Ron@Work

4-Feb-09 05:51 AM 

If they add more weight to S2000 cars artifically then I begin to agree with Chris because they will no longer be so competitive and they will look more boring too.

I agree that Grp N is also getting out of hand, and FIA trying to equalise it with S2000 is maybe the reason, but pWRC is still called "production car world championship"

I can see Quesenel's point. Peugeot with S2000 and Citroen with S2000+ is kind of a good solution, and for the future I can see turbos are the way road cars are going. However, do Citroen have a 2.0 litre turbo in their range currently? Can't remember them marketing that one. There is a 'C4 by Loeb' in my carpark at home, but that ain't a turbo is it?

I also heard Quesnel say that even if rules are S2000Turbo they are not guaranteed to stay in WRC next year, so anything to upset them is not a good idea!

 Re: WRC S2000Turbo future by Chris B

4-Feb-09 06:59 AM 

More weight to S2000 is already confirmed and I believe was already in charge in Monte, which was only spectacular for the weather.

However WRC has a chance. If they use S2000 and make snow tyres compulsory on any surface, the cars might be interesting to watch. I hope they put nice musik over the engine sound on all videos. LOL

Citroen C4 "by Loeb" is based on the Citroen C4 VTS, which is a 2 liter 16v from the Xsara, 307 and 206 days. This engine is old and will be replaced soon-ish. It is still a little vague what will repace this engine. Basically the replacement is there already. The 2.0 16v with 140BHP is opposed to the new 1.6 bi-turbo with 150BHP. There is talk that the new 308 RC-Z may debut a 2.0 bi-turbo with over 200BHP. But first they seem to concentrate on a new range of 1000cc 3-cylinder turbos to cover the range up to 80-90BHP.

In any case, lightweight downsizing with efficient turbo torque seems the trend not only at PSA and the days of the 2.0 atmo are numbered.

 Re: WRC S2000Turbo future by Chris B

4-Feb-09 07:04 AM 

Besides have you noticed that in Norway in the so called ProductionWRC alongside Sandell's Skoda we have 2 Abarth S2000!

 Re: WRC S2000Turbo future by RonSkoda

4-Feb-09 08:28 AM 

Well, yes, I agree that S2000s should never be called production cars and probably latest N4s as well. pWRC should perhaps be called something like "World gravel cup". It used to be the "Mitsubishi gravel cup" but with these S2000s coming, that has changed.

Actually, I have little faith that road car relation regarding the engine format is that important to most people. More important is, I think, that anyone with a presence in motorsport should have a sporting vehicle in their road car range but I don't think anyone is going to say:

"Sorry, I can't buy that Focus ST, it has too many cylinders compared to your WRCar"


"Sorry, don't want your Fabia RS because the world rally car doesn't run on diesel"

However, I agree that smaller capacity turbos is the way road cars are going. Next Fabia RS should be 1.4TSI with 170BHP.

But back to the production car topic, I'm not sure it is a wise choice for the top formula of rallying.

-Firstly, it will be slower and this doesn't help the excitement factor.
-Secondly, current rules are good because they don't restrict the number of potential manufacturers that could join the topflight. This is where WRCar rules were a big step forward because you didn't have to have a 4x4 turbo car in your road car range to join in.
- Thirdly, is there not a risk of us seeing more "homologation special" road cars to get round the "production" rules?

 Re: WRC S2000Turbo future by Chris B

4-Feb-09 09:31 AM 

Well, I agree - and had in the back of my mind with previous road relation comments - a true production category only works (-without homologation special road cars-) if the category looks at road market relation. Hence if groupN, aka Mitusbishi one-makes-series, banned 4x4 and took 2litre 2WD - or now 1.6 turbo 2WD - as base, everyone would have a car in their range and everyone could prepare any car.

I also feel road relation is important....

- not if it has 4 or 5 cylinders, besides what stops us running a 5-cylinder in rallying, Subaru used boxer engines all the time, it adds to variation and suich to excitement.

- What Quesnel said, there is the marketing aspect. And he is right. I must say I fell in love with the design of the Abarth Grande Punto. I believe in the concept behind it too. But if I would buy an Abarth Grande Punto, I would struggle to get excited about its rally success, because the S2000 car is 4x4 atmo, on the road the only configuration Abarth sells cars is FWD turbo, hence already in the base concept differences couldn't be greater, hence I do not actually see what marketing advantage Abarth sees in S2000 rallying. In fact I quite believe this is the reason why Abarth showed an interest in WRC, at least they were told they could run a turbo version of their car there.

- Lastly, it is not only marketing, sales figures that the sport can return to the manufacturer, but also technology test results. In the example of Peugeot - Peugeot Sport is situated at PSA road car research and development centre - the whole HDI filtre diesel idea came up in rallying when trying anti lag solutions for the 206 WRC. It is not quite the same, but without the after burning effect of anti lag systems the clean HDI diesel would have never worked, filtres blocked every 5,000kms, etc. Same with Le Mans. The reason Peugeot is considering to stop their Le Mans program is because of a rule change gives less potential to HDI and Hybrid cars. I am not at all a fan of Hybrid, but Peugeot's long term intention in Le Mans was to show what their Hybrid can do as well as learn from the program for their road cars! The aspect goes both ways. It makes more sense to market a turbo car in rallying a turbo car. But also you can't use S2000 as a development bed for future technologies, if this category is completely the opposite of what future technologies are all about!

 Re: WRC S2000Turbo future by Gregor

4-Feb-09 10:00 AM 

Do the new PSA motors use direct fuel injection?

 Re: WRC S2000Turbo future by RonSkoda

4-Feb-09 02:10 PM 

"In fact I quite believe this is the reason why Abarth showed an interest in WRC, at least they were told they could run a turbo version of their car there."

Don't neccesarily agree with that:

Other appoints to address:

"More weight to S2000 is already confirmed and I believe was already in charge in Monte"

Yes, it was, but there is still quite a gap to traditional Grp N4s, I think it is ok at the moment, but if they go heavier still to try to close the gap...

"WRC has a chance. If they use S2000 and make snow tyres compulsory on any surface, the cars might be interesting to watch."

Yes, they even made WRCs quite good to watch on the final town stage in Ireland ;) But seriously, if they really want to restrict the tyres so much maybe it's not such a bad idea as the asphalt tyres in Ireland couldn't cope with large amounts of water anyway and the tyres we had in GB couldn't handle cold mud either.

 Re: WRC S2000Turbo future by Radiv

5-Feb-09 09:13 AM 

Yes I fully agree: revert Gr N backwards, but allow more noise so they sound like a rally car !

 Re: WRC S2000Turbo future by Chris B

5-Feb-09 06:01 PM 

Abarth is the only one I have heard saying so, and that article surprised me, since indeed there is not a single Abarth you can buy with 4x4 and-or without turbo. S2000 completely contradicts their marketing and technology philosophy.

I can't find it now, but on the tradition "we delay a decission before it is confirmed and u-turn it again after confirmation" Mosley said Loeb, Stohl and others are wrong saying S2000 cars are boring, "Boredom or excitement does not come from the cars, but from the drivers and conditions!"

Right, then let's take Mosley's words, save WRC budget and run 140BHP FWD groupN Ford Fiestas, and if anyone says this is boring, we blame it on the drivers!

Meanwhile on a German web site on the question if Volkswagen was to join the WRC, Volkswagen is quoted as saying: "Rather unlikely. The FIA and WRC don't even know themselves what direction they want to go in technics and promotion!"

In the original context they sound like they have looked at WRC and are laughing their heads off at what they have seen!

 Re: WRC S2000Turbo future by Spindle

6-Feb-09 09:43 AM 

It's a shame you can no longer buy today's equivalent of the Delta integrale, GT4 or Escort Cosworth in the showroom.. Ultimately that was the whole point of rallying in the first place!

But I believe rallying's reached the same stage as F1 in its development. The advancement of technology has reached such an extent that each new breakthrough seems to reduce the need for driver skill and fitness etc. Therefore its time to put the focus back on driver input rather than technology, this is a sure fire way to increase excitement in the process. There can be no doubt Loeb is the driver of his generation but how would he compare to Ari Vatenen in manhandling a 205 T16?? If rallying is used 1st and foremost as a test bed for future technology then whats the point of bothering with drivers, hell just do it in virtual reality! The WRC's getting to the point where I find it difficult to keep interest...

Indoor bowls can be more appealing!

 Re: WRC S2000Turbo future by Radiv

8-Feb-09 04:04 AM 

This all depends on in what direction you want WRC to move in.

If you mean that rally is to follow in the footsteps of F1 and get a circus that is 100% commercial, and the fans can not get access to their heroes, they being the drivers, cars or engineers, since the paddock is closed or to expensive to get in to.

The other direction is to make WRC more accessible to both fans, and teams that want to start, and can build a car.

I would love that WRC was kept so simple that MEM could come in as they did under Rally Ireland, with a good driver and have made a basically good car, and have the possibility to win.

In todays WRC that is not possible, since the factory teams have so much better cars than the private teams, and if a driver happened to be lucky in an event, he will be told to back of, due to points !!
This is not how I would like WRC in the future.

There has always been a difference btw rally and racing, where the rally environment is more relaxed, and open, I would like to keep it that way. By mixing in too much money, that will not be possible.

I think ISC need to go over to USA to learn from how NASCAR and Grand-Am are doing business. All european drivers going to the US say one thing - I love the relaxed atmosphere and openness btw all involved - it is only motorsport and it there to entertain the fans !!

 Re: WRC S2000Turbo future by Gregor

9-Feb-09 09:59 AM 

US rally in particular then is a perfect choice since most cares are made in the garage. A few of the top cars are either built fancy components and now and there are a few used group N cars that sneak in as antiques or disassembled, but the lower ranks are full of relatively inexpensive thrills.


 Re: WRC S2000Turbo future by bigjohn

12-Feb-09 01:56 AM 

F.I.A. must make it simply simple!
1-Group N. real standart cars.2WD, including all the R class cars.
2-S2000. like it is at the moment! Private Championship! PWRC.....
3-T2000. WRC cars. Turbo charged with less high Tech. then the current wrc cars.

 Re: WRC S2000Turbo future by Spindle

12-Feb-09 10:27 AM 

I agree with Radiv here, the days of the competitive privateer are long gone... again this is a shame and is something which needs fixing.

Look at all the Irish drivers who've paid 300,000 for WRC cars which become out of date in a year.

Steps need to be taken to simplify technology, reduce costs, increase driver input and ideally allow the competitive privateer to run his own car, without the assistance/authority of prodrive technical backup (another cost), for example.

I haven't seen U.S rallying for years. Are the Sprongle brothers still using that Group B quatro?

 Re: WRC S2000Turbo future by Gregor

12-Feb-09 11:36 AM 

The quattro was at Targa Newfoundland last year, but they seem to have an arrangement with Suzuki to run a Swift (in Canada it's a Daewoo with Suzuki badges) in the Canadian series. I'm not sure what the plans are for this year; when it comes to Targa Newfoundland I always have to root for Bill Arnold who races an old BMW 3.0.

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