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 Re: WRC S2000Turbo future by RonSkoda

26-Feb-09 09:28 AM 

There are rumours that VW are looking to use a TDI engine when the series goes S2000. In WTCC this is also an option - S2000 NA petrol or TDI, they could use the same rules in theory.

That would be interesting!

 Re: WRC S2000Turbo future by Radiv

26-Feb-09 05:38 PM 

My question was a bit clumsily written.
I will rephrase.

So the 207 R3T has 270 hp, ala a S2000, how much will change on it if bored up to 1800 - the current WRC 2000 T we know has aprox 350 hp and 8-900 NM, so my question is really - how much difference does 200 ccm do on HP and NM on equal tuning grade ?

And what is the right formula ?

As I have said before, I would like to see that Rally leads from the front - with something like 1200-1400 ccm with both compressor and turbo or twin-turbo - like the everyday engine will be in 10 years !

 Re: WRC S2000Turbo future by Chris B

27-Feb-09 05:35 AM 

Ahh, I see, Radiv. Current WRC S2000+T is only speculation, but indeed 350BHP is what I heard and seems realistic. State of the art 207 R3T is 270BHP for a 1600cc turbo. That would mean an increase of 80BHP or 40BHp for each 200cc. Sounds about correct. A current S1600 car has 220BHP, S2000 has 280BHP. If we consider that the bigger engine would profit more from the turbo, but also air restrictors, size of turbo, boost need to be considered.

"There are rumours that VW are looking to use a TDI engine when the series goes S2000. In WTCC this is also an option - S2000 NA petrol or TDI, they could use the same rules in theory.

That would be interesting!"

That would indeed be interesting. VW, who never could do any decent rally car in history, would then win every WRC round, very much like sister Seat, another failure story in WRC, wins every WTCC round! On the other hand VW is another example how blind folded to future road technology reality the FIA is. Against all trends we ban turbos from rallying. And if VW in the boring sounding but efficient diesel turbo wins every rally, we have to disqualify them because their road cars are wider than the monster WRCars' maximum permitted width!

 Re: WRC S2000Turbo future by Chris B

27-Feb-09 05:46 AM 

Actually more details to both subjects.

Talking of the bigger volume engine profits more the turbo, would a turbo stop making sense There must be an ideal engine size range for turbos. I know trying a mates Mazda 323 gN rally car that fitting the biggest permitted turbo only led to bigger turbo lag and less driveability. The small engine could not allow for enough breathing to take profit the turbo. Though that was in the days before air restrictor and stuff. However I also seem to remember examples that fitting turbos to like a 4.0 V8 did not lead to a massive power increase, likely as the base power was already very high.

The VW S2000 TDI story would actually be an interesting concept comparison on different rallies. For the nature of the diesel turbo combo with massiv low end torque but lack of high revs, I would believe the VW S2000 TDI would be unbea on the twisty, technical stages, but i.e. in high speed Finland this concept would struggle. Given that touring cars are usually less technical, i.e. there wont be too many hairpins and jumps and technical combinations of tight, tricky corners in WTCC, Seats success in that series should make us scared of such car in WRC!

 Re: WRC S2000Turbo future by Radiv

27-Feb-09 09:23 AM 

So if a driver came in a 207 R3T with full tuning, and 270 hp - what class would FIA put him in today, before the R class implementation ?

 Re: WRC S2000Turbo future by Chris B

27-Feb-09 01:27 PM 

Well, there is an extra R3T class. Before this, it would be an A8 car, as A8 says nothing about 4x4 vs 2WD, while 1600cc plus turbo equals a 2700cc engine.

 Re: WRC S2000Turbo future by levingt

27-Feb-09 07:26 PM

OMG, what happened to function over form, are they trying to appeal to yo yo's!!!

 Re: WRC S2000Turbo future by Chris B

27-Feb-09 11:05 PM 

Thanks for the link. Another proof that WRC is kindergarden.

"World Rally Cars deserve a unique place in the pyramid of motorsport. As a world championship it is important that WRC stands out from the crowd.”

And we do that with just a few spoilers and go faster f-ing stripes!

"lower costs of entry, with real confidence that technical regulations are in place which are sensible and avoid any risk of excessive development expenditure.”

Which is exactly what a high revs 4x4 kit car formula is NOT!

If F2, S1600 or S2000, atmo kit cars have never been cheap, never been possible for cost control. A 2009 S2000 car is barely short of the price of a WRCar 8 years ago, it is already double the original price cap! And top World Championship teams have not even started yet playing with them!

We do not need go faster stripes but a car that is the way ahead in road market reality and this means turbo!

If he is right with the 1600cc turbo future, I am the first one to applaud that. But S2000 plus go faster stripes is neither avoiding risk of cost explosion, nor sensible in road market future nor does this make the WRC stand out from IRC and national championships!

 Re: WRC S2000Turbo future by RonSkoda

28-Feb-09 02:35 AM 

It looks like they are using S2000 as a stop gap for 2011 and 2012 until the 1.6 turbos come on stream in 2013. I don't really understand that as given that the manufacturers will have to develop new NA S2000 engines for 2011, why not just go straight to 1.6 turbo?

The answer I suspect is that they would like to kill off IRC by 'stealing' their cars for a couple of years.

 Re: WRC S2000Turbo future by Chris B

28-Feb-09 06:13 AM 

However this can backfire on them. Right now, rules, points system, selection of events, etc., I can only see 2 aspects in which the WRC clearly beats the IRC, that is the cars and the name. From 2011 it is only the name.

Besides is it 2011. As far as I understood - leaving the u-turn tradition aside as also S2000+T was eventually confirmed only a few weeks ago - they have now decided on S2000- cars for 2010 but it is not clear yet if 2010 means winter season with a gap until August 2010 or winter season with a mini season before and if so if this means the mini WRC starting early 2010 or the 2011 winter season starting later in 2010, and this being 3 options, imagine the potential for u-turns....

Sorry, can't help being jokingly sarcastic, but this is really a question, what does a 2010 start mean?

 Re: WRC S2000Turbo future by bringbackrealrallying

28-Feb-09 07:57 AM 

its just such a load of arse. If I wanted to watch a Fiat Punto or Peugeot 207 with a cheap body kit on zing past at high revs then I can go and stand at the top of the street at night and watch the local scallies go passed! Its plainly obvious that the ISC guy quoted on that WRC article has plenty of marketing experience, maybe even sports marketing but no experience of rallying whatsoever.

 Re: WRC S2000Turbo future by levingt

28-Feb-09 08:47 PM 

I think they have (FMGC) Fast Moving Consumer Goods background where repackaging strategies work well to make a chocolate bar stand out on the deli shelf, and they often also get away with reducing the volume of the product meaning the consumer gets less for there money but apparently buys more of it because its 'pretty'

Anyway I am not so concerned with what cars are driven as long as performance of WRC is the best available, because in future we may have something else, all electric cars for example.

What concerns me is that WRC is losing what really makes different from other series. It needs to take a step back and prepare a mission statement or seriously repair the existing one.

Say something like WRC is the ultimate test of engineering, integrity and of human resilience and ability under adversity. WRC places competitors under this stress 12-15 times a year and this is a truly unique proposition and an incredibly worthy activity to just participate in.

This is how WRC should differentiate itself…not w ith fancy wings and go fast stripes!

I think I'll re post some of this on WRC on Facebook.

 Re: WRC S2000Turbo future by Chris B

1-Mar-09 10:47 AM 

Excellent points! Like with the move from groupB to groupA, the outright speed of the cars is actually secundary, as long as we have a fairly level play field and good action. Just I have serious doubts that adding a rear spoiler and go faster stripes to cars we see at every corner will provide this action show. OK, I am a fan of keeping a road relation, but if I see the same cars in IRC and national rallies, I am not going to watch WRC just because of a rear spoiler!

Good point about going back to differentiate from other sports. Apart from about every rule change of latest years, the IRC got this one right too. I said it before with examples like glamorous Monte with Turini night, picturesque RAC park stages, picturesque and adventurous Safari, or as an extreme example to bring the point across even without marketing effort - when the London-Sydney marathon was invented, the public found it unbelievable anybody could drive their car from London to Sydney, and so they followed it. This is something wheere single events differentiates from others and wheere the public can understand and touch the unique challenge. If I see 15 rounds office hours rallying with all locations looking the same, by round 3 I have got bored with it and don't tune in again.

 Re: WRC S2000Turbo future by Chris B

1-Mar-09 10:51 AM 

...And then I will miss round 4 and rather watch that N-GT Porsche on the local Tesco car park slalom...

 Re: WRC S2000Turbo future by Gregor

2-Mar-09 12:22 AM 

What calculation was used to get 1.6L as the desired displacement? I always guessed 2.0 was the default because it was the tipping point for taxation; a very nice nod to road car relevance.

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