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 Re: WRC S2000Turbo future by Chris B

5-Mar-09 06:32 AM 

"This is why I feel kit cars are needed!"

Well, group2, 4 and A cars also had a standard floor and looked alright?

 Re: WRC S2000Turbo future by levingt

5-Mar-09 10:35 AM 

Not familiar with group2 and 4, you will have to enlighten me. Didn't GrpA inherently had the same problem as WRCar, dwindling manufacturer support, but because of high homologation costs.

Now that is something else I would like to learn about, homologation. I sort of know what it means but the process behind it is a bit of a mystery.

 Re: WRC S2000Turbo future by onthelimit

15-Mar-09 05:33 PM 

They 're going to destroy WRC. In Cyprus Sandel's Fabia S2000 was slower than some Gr N cars. I really hope that they won't decide S2000 for WRC future.

 Re: WRC S2000Turbo future by blatant

15-Mar-09 09:38 PM 

You know, when push come to shove, I don't really care what rules they bring into the WRC. People have mentioned here that low power cars that weigh a lot are boring to watch, but, WRCars are boring to watch. Rallies are boring to watch. The whole championship is boring to watch!
I think as long as they bring in a formula that is cheap and will enable lots of manufactureres to take part, I say bring it on. More cars means more works drivers and we'll start to see talented drivers filling the ranks, not just utterly lame pay-drivers.
If S2000 can do this for the series, then I am all for it.

 Re: WRC S2000Turbo future by RonSkoda

16-Mar-09 00:35 AM 

Good post Blatant!

I recently changed the front page poll to ask the question whether S2000s are right for WRC, and most seem to think that they are.

 Re: WRC S2000Turbo future by Chris B

16-Mar-09 00:59 AM 

Ron, for the way the poll is written, most would say yes because WRC needs more manufacturers. Of the 4 basic ategories you could come up with - with or without turbo, with or without 4x4 - S2000 has the least exciting formula there is. Worse even in this context, S2000 being a 4x4 kit car category, I give it not even 5 years of development and they cost the same as WRCars today. so they are not even going to change the current situation in the long run.

 Re: WRC S2000Turbo future by RonSkoda

16-Mar-09 01:07 AM 

I think what the FIA and other powers that be in WRC are trying to do is come up with a quick and simple short term solution, and my own suspicion is that they are trying to stymi IRC by stealing their cars. This is the option I chose on that poll.

The poll was not a question of comparing forumlae but asking whether this one was right for WRC or not.

 Re: WRC S2000Turbo future by Radiv

16-Mar-09 04:04 AM 

Yes it is boring to watch, but that has more to do with extremely bad TV production from whoever makes the film + it has been the same shit for years + time to think outside the box and improve !!

 Re: WRC S2000Turbo future by Chris B

17-Mar-09 06:28 AM 

I agree with Ron's comments on FIA plans. Yes, they are trying to take something away from IRC as they fear that competition, which is what EuroSport in their German commentary said quite clearly. So EuroSport agrees to this point too.

If S2000 is a short time bridge solution and the future is 1600cc turbo, I am all for it. Everybody inside the sport says the same as my basic thinking. In the latest GPweek Séb Loeb said that 4x4 without turbo is a bad solution. The basic thinking - less electronics aside, which we can have either way - if we want more cost efficient spectacle, we want less grip and more power, hence 2WD atmo, 2WD turbo and 4x4 turbo, everything is better than a 4x4 atmo kit car!

S2000 is the least spectacular and most costly base configuration and S2000 as a WRCar category in the long run I can no advantage whatsoever in spectacle and cost over the current WRCar. The advantage of S2000 is that at this moment it is not yet as highly developed as WRCars. Hence the only advantage I can see in S2000 for WRC is in the short run, because currently there are many manufacturers already having an S2000 car and we can steal them from IRC. In 2-3 years time this will fade away, as has been the case in other kit car formulas as F2 and S1600.

Not wanting to criticise, nor to change the poll, but what concerns the poll, if the question is what is the best for WRC, I would tick option 1 as WRC needs more manufacturers. S2000 should not be part of this question and at least beyond the first couple of years is not the answer to how the more manufacturers are achieved.

If this is a bridge solution until 1600cc turbos come 3 years later, then another point is missing. Sure we need a solution quick, but we need a solution that still is thought through as in these difficult times rule stability is equally as important! For example VW. They do Dakar once more in 2010. If then they decide for WRC, they could have an S2000 Scirocco ready for 2011. Maybe give it one season till the car is fully up with Citroen and Ford. But they wont join WRC with an S2000 Scirocco if already a year or two later they need to design yet another car.

 Re: WRC S2000Turbo future by RonSkoda

17-Mar-09 08:59 AM 

The other issue with a temporary switch to S2000 is that it is unlikely we are going to see more than one S2000 car from each auto-group - ie. we are not going to see a VW Scirocco S2000 and a Skoda Fabia S2000, or we are not going to see a Peugeot 207 S2000 and a Citroen C3 S2000. In this respect, S2000 was a good solution for the health of rallying as a whole as it was different from the "top" formula. I could actually see this switch to S2000 for WRC actually discouraging some manufacturers from making these cars at all!

Regarding the attempted murder of IRC - it may be that IRC has to change car formulas or change it's ethos. Maybe it could become the new ERC? But it may not be doomed just yet - Abarth recently admitted that there is performance missing from their car and that this could make a switch to WRC unlikely until they have got their car right.

Lastly, I actually agree that I would like to see S2000 1.6 turbos for the top formula. Everything Chris says about road car engines and efficiency of the engine does indeed make sense. However, they must be very careful.... I watched Cyprus review last night, and maybe I was watching different footage to Chris, but even on gravel tyres on tarmac I still didn't think the WRCs were very spectacular, especially considering there was a lot of loose gravel around. They must lose the centre active diff from the new formula I think, and they must also find a way to make the modern turbos rev higher and sound better. I also have my doubts as to how cheap the turbo engines might be, unless they go really radical and have virtual Grp N spec on them.

 Re: WRC S2000Turbo future by bringbackrealrallying

17-Mar-09 10:35 AM 

I think the issues with the current WRC cars and the IRC cars are the same. They arent spectacular, they sound bad, they are made with the shells of the dullest cars known to man (I cant think of anything duller than a Citroen C4), they are too expensive and manufacturers don't want to build them (WRC cars in particular). I know the last 2 points dont really apply to the IRC but with time S2000 will also become expensive and no one will make them anymore. Changing to Group N and allowing sports cars to enter imediately eradicates the 1st 3 points. By nature they are loud, look the nuts and due to less technology would be more spectacular. Where this fits in with homologation costs etc I don't know. But we are currently in a situation where, compared to the late 70's and 80's we have heavier cars which have roughly the same amount of power & are stiched to the road by elecectronics. Throw in that your local vicar probably owns one and that they sound nothing special and this all adds up to a dull spectacle

 Re: WRC S2000Turbo future by Radiv

17-Mar-09 11:07 AM 

FIA's WRC decisions:

 Re: WRC S2000Turbo future by onthelimit

17-Mar-09 01:25 PM 

I disagree. WRC cars sound great. They would have sounded even better if FIA had lifted decibel restriction. Turbo and anti-lag system sound great too. WRC cars carry so much speed and at the exit of a corner they explode a massive torque. They are awesome!!!

 Re: WRC S2000Turbo future by Chris B

17-Mar-09 11:00 PM 

Well, WRCars dont sound as great, and especially not as noisy as the old cars. And the FIA and whoever is totally wrong telling us turbos are to blame. Just remember Audi Quattro and Escort Cosworth. But the WRCars still have something. Maybe it doesnt come across on TV, but seeing a C4, Focus or Fabia WRC in the flash, they still have some brute in sound and how they accelerate away. This is something that is completely lacking S2000 cars, of which I have the impression in contrary to WRCars they sound more dull live than on TV. So I for one agree to onthelimit.
Not to ignore, what Ron says that modern turbos should rev higher and sound better. The higher revs are not actually needed I think. Maybe it is something with the modern fast gear changes. onthelimit mentions he loves the anti lag system Exactly this spectacular orchestra is missing. Or in the case of gN Lancers it just sounds silly. Once again remember Escort Cosqorth and Audi Quattro, they came across to the public as monsters having to be tamed, and that is the kind of show that could sell this sport!

"I also have my doubts as to how cheap the turbo engines might be"

I keep short at things I have said often before. In simple terms, engineering and building an engine, what rockets the price is high spec mechanical compression. Turbo engines dont need revs and they dont need a standard compression of 141 -14 to 1-, they do it purely through boost creeated by waste energy! If the FIA, as originally planned, applies a custom and sealed air restrictor and blow off valve, such limiting air intake and max boost, we not only save a lot of money on tuning the engine itself for compression and revs, but we have a more level playfield than atmo can ever deliver. Such yes, if you dont go like 1400BHP F1 Turbos of the 80s or a 1400cc groupB R5 with a turbo charger so huge it needed a trailor, cost in development and wear of a turbo version S2000 car will be a lot less than an atmo!

In fact that is a big part what I dont understand about S2000 and why I am so persistant of criticising this formula. Today the makes have a lot more experience with turbos. OK, they probably still want some experiments with them in motorsport and we probably end up working with huge intercoolers and anti lag systems. So what The turbo engine itself before adding the turbo will be a lot cheaper, the turbo auxiliaries will not be that much, at least it will be less money than adding a transmission tunnel and rear floor pan to accommodate triple as many diffs and double the number of driveshafts to a shell never designed for anything but FWD. Apart the 4x4 giving us more weight and more grip, both killing spectacle, telling us adding 4x4 rather than a turbo to a kit car is like telling us a 16 rounds calendar is cheaper than a 12 rounds one!

Or in bringbackrealrallyings words, modern cars are too heavy with too much electronics. He tries to tell us about N-GT cars, and he is right. To not exclude too many normal car manufacturers, I would pitch N-GT cars against 1600cc Turbo 4x4 cars or even 1600T 2WD. In fact I cant understand why N-GT cars arent allowed WRC and IRC already. Them Porsches, Ferraris, BMW 130i and Nissan 350Z look and sound the piece and on the right surface can beat gN cars!

Generally with S2000, as Ron mentions I think they do actually have one diff active. They still have electronics, even if much less than WRCars, they are heavy and have max grip, apart crap sound. The S2000 cars, even with less electronics and lack of umpf, as kit cars they are so perfcetly balanced and equipped that they brake and turn in like circuit race cars. Dead s under breaking a corner. If you dont believe froom IRC TV footage, go and stand on a stage were you see S2000 cars mixed in with gN Lancers, N-GT Porsches, R3 Clios and even the odd WRCar. IRC Brazil and PWRC Cyprus showed that nicely. In both on the faster stages the gN Lancers could play near the front, but as soon as it became more twisty, the S2000 cars were a lot more efficient - and here we are talking efficiency in braking, balance and handling, which means boring to watch efficiency.

The main problem, that no-one seems to believe right now, is that S2000 is still a kit car category! You ban electronics, the best WRC engineers in the world come out with something else, even more expensive as they have to bypass the obvious solution. You ban one thing, they find the next. Example, in F2 Kit Cars the FIA banned electronic traction control systems. Next event the Peugeot 306 Maxis on the start line had very obviously traction control. The FIA examined and found it was the engine rev limiter cleverly reacting on wheel spin, and the FIA could not ban rev limiters! In S2000 we already have an example. In WRC active suspension were banned and Ford came out with their genius but expensive trick suspension. In S2000 we have less clever diffs, so Peugeot and Skoda fit the Ford trick suspension and already the supposed to be 168,000 Euros S2000 cars are at 300,000!

What will happen next. It hurts me to say this, but here maybe the IRC is still more amateur than WRC and competition is more friendly banter. So 2011 WRC uses the same cars as IRC. If in WRC the Citroen S2000 is faster, then Ford will explore Kit Car freedom and develop a clever trick. A few round slater Citroen will copy and develop something on top. And if you are not a complete idiot, you buy a Citroen S2000 car, remove the kindergarden boyracer wing and beat the Peugeots, Skodas, Abarths, etc in IRC, so they will follow suit soon too. See what I mean. Kit Car is the wrong idea, I give it not even 5 years and S2000 cost the same as a WRCar today! In fact the all conquering Peugeot 206 WRC of 2000-2002 did not cost that much more than a Peugeot 207 S2000 today!!!!

So indeed, while for the moment there are several manufacturers with S2000 cars that could just take their cars and join WRC, for all I just said there is a lot of truth in Rons line "I could actually see this switch to S2000 for WRC actually discouraging some manufacturers making these cars at all!"

The only profit I can see in all that - profit for me as an IRC fan and I am convinced for this profit of the whole sport - is that if froom 2011 WRC and IRC are using identical cars and in everything else WRC keeps being on the wrong track and IRC on the right one, IRC may as well just adopt the 1600cc Turbo alternative of S2000 minus some wings and monus some go faster stripes and such have the top league cars and become an even bigger threat to knock WRC of its throne!

 Re: WRC S2000Turbo future by bringbackrealrallying

18-Mar-09 03:16 AM 

Just to back myself up with a historical example, as I always seem to do, at the 1982 Tour De Corse Ragnotti won in an R5 Turbo, Andruet was 2nd in a Ferrari 308 GTB and Beguin was 3rd in a Porsche 911 SC. I don't know about you but I dont see that may Porches, Ferraris and mid engined Renaults. Thats the modern day equivalent of the top 3 being say Sebastien Ogier in a Renault Sport Clio V6 or BMW M3, Panizzi in a Ferrari 360 GT and Loix in a 911 GT3. Now tell me you wouldnt wet youself with excitement and book the 1st flight to Ajaccio if you saw them on the entry list this year, even if the WRC cars trounced them. Or from the same year at the Monte 3 private Porches were entered for Waldegard, Therier & Frequelin and Andruet was there in his Ferrari too. Imagine tuning in to watch live coverage of the Turini and Gronholm was kicking the arse of a 911 in the dark, with big head lamps on. You would listen to any amount of shit from some second rate comedian if it meant you got to see that! Instead we watch cars that our nanna's mates own that sound like an angry cat trying to escape from a bag.
I know none of this will ever happen but it just shows how much we are missing out on by being born 27 years too late! And I also know saloon/family cars have and will always have a place in rallies, but variety is the spice as they say.

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