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 Re: WRC S2000Turbo future by Chris B

13-Mar-08 07:27 AM 

Haha, yes, sure I revel in that!

Front wheel drive is totally unspectacular I started my sporting career in karts, then a ion of cars in slaloms and rallies. The most spectacularly oversteering car I ever cometed in was a FWD Peugeot 205! Also FWD is unspectacular
httpwww.youtube.comwatchvND6aoEPLxYU
httpwww.dailymotion.comvideox12a0k_r11-turbo
Ron, can you find that fantastic video of Triner onto the ramp again

Anyway, there are hundreds of examples why we should free our minds FWD equals understeer, RWD equals oversteer, there are oversteering FWD cars and worst of all you can do nothing interesting with an understeering RWD!

Cudos to Chandler in some way, but in another he perfectly fits in with FIA arguments. How is it the FIA always manages to use the very arguments against something for it

I have 3 points why I started discussing a return to 2WD.

- the 4x4 drive train is clearly the most expensive part of any car

- for weight and grip it kills spectacle. If we want spectacle, we need big torque, small grip, drooping turbos and retaining 4x4 is clearly wrong way, 4x4 should be drooped before turbo!

- and last but not least exactly the road market resemblense

I find it ironic beyond prin words to say "RWD wouldnt represent the market .... that the car they are using cant even be bought by the man on the street."

But not to say "4x4 wouldnt represent the market .... that the car they are using cant even be bought by the man on the street."

This is exactly a point to go for 2WD, not against it!



 Re: WRC S2000Turbo future by Chris B

13-Mar-08 07:30 AM 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ND6aoEPLxYU
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x12a0k_r11-turbo
Ron, can you find that fantastic video of Triner onto the ramp again?



 Re: WRC S2000Turbo future by Chris B

13-Mar-08 08:16 AM 

Ron, the poll doesn't work for me?



 Re: WRC S2000Turbo future by Adrian

13-Mar-08 08:28 AM 

Rather interesting news on autosport on comments the FIA

Source httpwww.autosport.comnewsreport.phpid65678

An FIA source told Autosport "Two-wheel-drive cars with 1600cc or 1800cc turbocharged engines remain an option. Mr Mosley has been very clear on what he wants the future regulations. He wants the cars to be slower, safer, cheaper, and more spectacular.

"Two-wheel-drive cars would certainly corner slower, so would be safer. Its safe to say two-wheel-drive would tick all the boxes Mr Mosley has asked to be ticked."

Mosley was unavailable for comment, but WRC Commission president Morrie Chandler admitted the idea was being discussed.

"At the end of the day, if the World Council doesnt want what weve put forward, then it would be possible for them to go for two-wheel-drive."

But Chandler would prefer a stipulation of rear-wheel-drive if the two-wheel-drive plan went ahead.

"Front-wheel-drive is totally unspectacular," he said. "People would love to see rear-wheel-drive rally cars with their tales sliding. That would be lots of fun, but it wouldnt represent the market.

"I dont think the manufacturers spending around 50 million euros would be impressed to find that they have to use a car that cant be bought by the man on the street."

End Source..

I thought they were comments in the right direction regarding FWD 2WD and then they that bombshell at the end regarding RWD might be preferred. haha

But it would be silly to lose Subaru yes, Chris it would be , and theyve made it pretty clear their stance on 4wd2wd!



 Re: WRC S2000Turbo future by Adrian

13-Mar-08 08:28 AM 

yes I do need to fix posting munching characters..

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/65678



 Re: WRC S2000Turbo future by RonSkoda

13-Mar-08 10:34 AM 

Here is the Triner vid:

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=yn1NZkdQwUE

Your examples are great too Chris. I think the fear of front wheel drive comes from the fact they are unable to power slide like a RWD or 4WD.

FWD turbo would be my second preference after 4wd.



 Re: WRC S2000Turbo future by starboardtac

13-Mar-08 11:24 AM 

"FWD turbo would be my second preference after 4wd."

FWD can be just as much fun as RWD with a little creative use of the hand brake. :)

Big loud crackle-popping self-destructing anti-lag with the dump-valve chirp should be mandatory.



 Re: WRC S2000Turbo future by Chris B

13-Mar-08 11:39 AM 

"But it would be silly to lose Subaru yes, Chris it would be , and theyve made it pretty clear their stance on 4wd2wd!"

I see Subaru's point. It wouldn't be impossible, as Subaru does sell 2WD cars, but their praiseworthy marketing niche is "AWD".

On the other hand, only Subaru has that niche. The road market tendency clearly moves away from 4x4 in the age of economic considerations and electronic aids. As Ron said, Citroen, Ford, Peugeot even doesn't have 4x4 cars (-except off roaders - 4x4 is generally a contradiction to high performance these days-). Even Mitsubishi is considering to stop their Lancer Evo range. The ultimate irony is Fiat brand Abarth in S2000. The whole philosophy of Abarth performance brand is petrol turbo FWD, S2000 is exactly the opposite.

While I see the point with Subaru, it would be more silly to lose 4-5-all manufacturers for the sake of 1. Discussing a new formula, the directions should go what helps most manufacturers, not a single one!

If you see the makes involved in WRC until some years ago or the makes with big rally history involved in smaller forms of rallying, I think I could bring you the names of a dozen potential candidates. We ignore them all for the sake of one manufacturer is a silly price to pay.

Besides it is rare I agree with Max Mosley, but all of his points: "He wants the cars to be slower, safer, cheaper, and more spectacular." - This is exactly what I am saying since years! Neither of these points is addressed with the current cars, of electronic active WRCars or max-grip-zero-torque S2000!



 Re: WRC S2000Turbo future by Chris B

13-Mar-08 12:44 AM 

Ron and Starboardtac:

""FWD turbo would be my second preference after 4wd."

FWD can be just as much fun as RWD with a little creative use of the hand brake. :)

Big loud crackle-popping self-destructing anti-lag with the dump-valve chirp should be mandatory."

Last point: Exactly, this should be mandatory!

I think the problem with FWD - as in Chandler's comments too - is that people always link: FWD equals understeer, RWD equals oversteer.

We must say good bye to this misconception!

Everybody who more or less regularly drives a selection of cars at the limit, if touring cars, rally cars, a test driver, will tell you that this is not the case! Yes, there is a different philosophy in driving these cars. FWD you power out and pull the car straight with the accelerator. But depending on suspension settings, a RWD car can be understeering - and then you have a real problem, because there is nothing you can do to stop this understeer. In return the most oversteering car I drove was my gN 205 - a FWD!

You don't even need the handbrake for FWD. Handbrake is always a sudden, un-smooth movement, not fast, nor nice to look at. But remember FWD has a lot less weight on the rear (-hence also faster and cheaper, you don't need to engineer a propshaft tunnel, re-design the rear axle...) There is lift off oversteer. Or better even left foot braking. I don't think Triner pulled the handbrake to get such a nice, long, controlled slight in the link above. Ragnotti is the king of left foot braking. Or as a bit of trivia: The first turbo win at WRC level was before 4x4 and it was not RWD either, it was left foot braker Stig Blomqvist in a FWD Saab in snow!!!!

On the videos you see the FWD cars are also less stable. This has little to do with modern vs old. I own a 4x4 road car and the only time I realise a big disadvantage is standing water on a fast road. Out of all points in Mosley's catalogue, the one that can be doughted is "safer". The cars are slower, such safer, but 4x4 is more stable, which also is safer! In competition especially under braking, the 4x4 system makes the car more stable (-sounds ironic, but believe me, even without acceleration when braking heavily 4x4 gives you more stability-). However isn't exactly that what is missing in modern rally cars and what we want to see? Drivers having to work hard is what I want to see! I am bored of cars that behave like on rails under heavy acceleration and braking - which sadly also applies to S2000!



 Re: WRC S2000Turbo future by Chris B

16-Mar-08 11:55 AM 

Radiv's idea really isn't bad, as it would allow fans to see how spectacular proper 2WD cars really can be.

I liked the F2 kit cars and beg you not to look at the tinny, struggling S1600 kit cars to judge the 2WD idea.

Our poll result so far speaks a clear language. The irony in this is, when groupB was banned, although 4x4 was not new to rallying, fans went onto the stages with big banners and chors protesting that the new formula was not banning 4x4! Everybody news something had to happen and groupB couldn't carry on. Nobody wished fatalities like we had in 1986. But early after the rule changes fans were going on the stages with many banners, 4x4 crossed out and writing "Thank you FIA for this boring rally!"

I am bringing this up because Belgian Championship round1 has just ended. Results here:

http://www.rallye-info.com/forum.asp?sid=11&boardid=13&action=thread&threadid=6798&new=4&page=1

3 RWD N-GT cars in the top5! 2 very low budget FWD Renault Clio R3 in top10. I may admit Guy Schammel in the Clio R3 only beat Stephen Hendy in the Focus WRC after Hendy had problems, but Schammel was pushing Hendy all the way. Hendy not a big name? Nor is Schammel! Schammel also nearly beat the groupN winner.

I would love to see what these R3 Clios could do if they had a turbo!

And never mind if FWD or RWD, the 2WD cars make drivers work hard! They are a hand full under braking! One of my all time favourite videos is not actually of an old classic group4 or groupB days rally, but quite recent. Marc Duez fighting the RWD N-GT Porsche in snow. That thing as barking like mad because he simply can't get the power down! The driver really has to work the throttle clever and hard. I am missing exactly this so much from modern rallies, and as long as we allow with 4x4, never mind what category, even S2000 without turbo, we will never see and hear a driver work and entertain us like this!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LcK9XxwlDRo



 Re: WRC S2000Turbo future by Chris B

16-Mar-08 11:59 AM 

"Radiv's idea really isn't bad, as it would allow fans to see how spectacular proper 2WD cars really can be."

Appoligies, I first was to post this into the "Max 2wd wishes" thread, but then realised its better here.



 Re: WRC S2000Turbo future by Chris B

19-Mar-08 06:44 PM 

About Morrie Chandler:

Quoted on this thread before:

But Chandler would prefer a stipulation of rear-wheel-drive if the two-wheel-drive plan went ahead.

"Front-wheel-drive is totally unspectacular," he said. "People would love to see rear-wheel-drive rally cars with their tales sliding. That would be lots of fun, but it wouldnt represent the market.

"I dont think the manufacturers spending around 50 million euros would be impressed to find that they have to use a car that cant be bought by the man on the street."

Quoted in a more recent article than the quote above on rally-live.com:

http://www.rally-live.com/wrc/en/headlines/news/detail/080317162605.shtml

"Chandler believes that the added traction presently available to participants offers nothing spectacular in return for the fans who wish to see the cars sliding along the stages, thereby making his point for a call to change the World Rally Championship regulations."

I am unsure if that is Morrie Chandler completely changing his mind, or if that is what rally-live.com makes out of his original comments. Saying "FWD is totally unspectacular" and "present added traction adds nothing spectacular" is like exactly the opposite.

Anyway, what I quoted from rally-live is exactly what I am saying, and I don't understand why people with common sense argue that. Sorry, don't mean to offend anyone. But less traction / grip equals more specacle at less cost equals Bingo!



 Re: WRC S2000Turbo future by Chris B

19-Mar-08 06:47 PM 

Sorry, had more of the first Candler quote than intended, (why is this forum not editable) so to put / keep it in the right light, drooping 4x4 was oringinally Mosley's idea with Chandler being the guy defending 4x4! The last, newer quote sounds very different to this.



 Re: WRC S2000Turbo future by CarlosF

21-Mar-08 07:13 AM 

I'm going to go against the majority here and state my preference for RWD.

I have nothing per se against FWD, and agree that they can be spectacular, however for every superb bit of footage as shown here there are many more clips of FWD cars that have absolutely no visual appeal whatsoever.

The F2 era was undoubtedly the highlight for FWD cars, but I would put the case that the same formula with power coming from the back wheels would have been even more spectacular.

I appreciate that the FWD=understeer, RWD=oversteer argument is far too simplistic but the basic principle is correct. An understeering RWD is a car that is set up incorrectly, not a fault of the concept.

There are of course many facets in what makes rallying appealing - noise being very important, even smell, but it is a visual sport and in my opinion, there are few sights guaranteed to get the average rally fan enthusiastic than the sight of a rally car being 'steered from the rear'. A drifting powerslide through a corner is a fundamental principle of RWD, and not something that even the best FWD exponent can properly emulate.

I think one important point to observe is when was the last time there was a top driver in a competitive rear wheel drive car? Its probably the BMW M3 all of twenty years ago. In comparison FWD has had continual development since, plus there have been some of the best drivers in the world competing in them. So its not comparing like with like. Let the RWD side catch up on twenty years of development, then see how they compare to their FWD brethern.



 Re: WRC S2000Turbo future by Chris B

21-Mar-08 08:32 AM 

Not sure if I fully agree. Even on the road there are still plenty of RWD cars, but most of them are less fun than FWD hot hatches. In motorsport development I don't think RWD has to catch up. In French rallying they had for years (still occasionally now) an F2 BMW that was RWD, which was one of the more spectacular F2 cars, but not as exciting as the 306 Maxi and especially the Clio Maxi. Mind you, most of the F2 cars had too much technology already. Or how about F1 (boring in the oversteer aspect) or WTCC...


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