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 Re: WRC S2000Turbo future by Gregor

23-Mar-09 09:55 AM 

Somewhere amid the piles of old Magazines I have are several copies of MotorSport from the late 70s. In one is an incredulous piece written after a chat with MM who claimed F1 doesn't really need fans as there's more money to be made from selling the television rights, and it can be left to the broadcasters and advertisers to worry about a world wide audience he seems to take for granted. If that's been the strategy Bernie and Max have been using for the last 35 years what are the chances it will change?

They've run roughshod over F1 for years and I can't see them doing anything about WRC at all. The only problem is after all this time who else is there to run it? That's what makes IRC seem so much nicer.



 Re: WRC S2000Turbo future by Chris B

23-Mar-09 11:14 AM 

Some messages back someone -really turns to much to read it all, sorry for lack of credit- mentioned that the FIA makes decisions on a democratic basis. I never jumped onto this train, but between the lines this aspect was kept up down to LevinGT questioning if Ari Vatanen would make a better FIA president.

I have to maybe take some of the burden and blame off MMs shoulders. This line may sound strange. But recent news is that ex Peugeot and Ferrari sport director Jean Todt has recently erased his last ties with Ferrari and some people believe this is a move so he can stand in as MM replacement. I personally hope that Jean Todt will not be the next FIA president, so that I can carry on admiring him in the highest regards as the genius I know him to be.

Strange comment, isn't it. I personally think the way the FIA is to make decisions needs to be changed big style. Because it is a democracy of making i.e. fax votes of countries represented by old farts that have no clue and could not care less about the fate of motorsports, with WRC potentially being the smallest number in their brains, long way beyond F1. This means:

1 - This rule deciding process is a democracy, which means if the FIA president is called Max Mosley, Ari Vatanen or Jean Todt, it likely would not change all that much, as the decissions are signed off by a democratic vote of people that have only heard of WRC as a rumour.

2 - Whilst I am convinced Jean Todt or similar cannot do what they want as a result of point 1, and therefore it is wrong to judge MM overly, Jeanot and Ari can probably still make an impact for rallying as uneducated voters, uninterested in WRC, probably sign off in their vote what Max Mosley has said before in public, which then is not very democratic.

This is i.e. what I believe happened in the S2000 minus turbo question. At least it is very strange in a democracy that S2000 + turbo is long signed off and a confirmed rule, then out of the blue we have MM say something exactly opposite and within a few weeks we have this u-turn confirmed in a democratic operation.

All this seems complicated and slow, is neither really what a democracy is about, nor is it the WRC insiders that make the rules. In both angles not the ideal. This is probably one reason wheere IRC operates easier and better.



 Re: WRC S2000Turbo future by levingt

24-Mar-09 01:15 AM 

"world wide audience he seems to take for granted If that's been the strategy Bernie and Max have been using for the last 35 years what are the chances it will change?"

Well this may have been the case up until probably as late as around 2005. The mainstream market has caught up, is catching up and is now flooded with a lot information and entertainment options and a huge array of devices for delivering that information. TV is becoming a smaller and smaller portion of peoples lives.

Not only that people are time poor and often only take things at face value and say 'that was cool, what’s next' they just can't allow themselves the time to understand things because they feel they'll miss out on the next 'cool' thing. Anyhow taking the next 'cool' thing route would result in a thing of substance being reduced to nothing. Right now FIA has really good and worthwhile championships, albeit a little dishevelled from the recent rule changes and cost cutting measures. I think younger people are treating these championships fleetingly, not being able to illiterate there value. Part of the reason IRC evolved is because WRC had taken the next ‘cool’ thing route and fans like us have a preference for the former. Anyway WRC has its place and it should seek to really test competitors, people and corporate’s will aspire to the challenges. IRC is as its mission statement says “The Intercontinental Rally Challenge wishes to give new opportunities to young or amateur rally drivers competing in recognized regional and international rallies.”

Next thing I guess is to say its all fun shooting the shit about these things but part of democracy is the enabling interest groups to have there say.

“votes of countries represented by old farts that have no clue and could not care less about the fate of motorsports, with WRC potentially being the smallest number in their brains, long way beyond F1”

Who jumps up and down for these votes for Rally?



 Re: WRC S2000Turbo future by Ron@Work

26-Mar-09 04:09 AM 

"Basically agreed, but current WRCars do still sound better than the current S2000s!!!!"

Chris, are you trying to tell me a current Focus sounds better than this?:

http://www.stream.cz/video/10/273036-vysoke-pole

Ok, so I may have cheated a little by choosing the worst sounding WRCar of all time vs. one of the best sounding S2000s but still....

I do still quite like the note of the C4 but I still think the current WRCars change gear too early and this contributes to the overall boringness of them. Would a controlled (lower) turbo boost help this, forcing them to use more revs?



 Re: WRC S2000Turbo future by onthelimit

26-Mar-09 11:52 AM 

Undoubtedly WRC sound better than S2000. Just listen to this.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tBE75jwr968
Awesome!!!



 Re: WRC S2000Turbo future by bringbackrealrallying

26-Mar-09 01:48 PM 

awesome? awesome is the sound of the Porsche 911 SC in theis video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=voceHo-w1Sg



 Re: WRC S2000Turbo future by RonSkoda

26-Mar-09 02:54 PM 

"Undoubtedly WRC sound better than S2000. Just listen to this.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tBE75jwr968
Awesome!!!"

Ahhh, but that doesn't count for two reasons:

- It is a Skoda, and rally Skoda's of the last 10 years always sound awesome

- It is 6 years ago, and WRCars just don't sound like that anymore :(

They sound like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=soHObqrzvdw



 Re: WRC S2000Turbo future by Chris B

26-Mar-09 05:14 PM 

"Chris, are you trying to tell me a current Focus sounds better than this?:"

Yes, definitely! I am actually surprised by your choice, I have heard better videos of the Fabia S2000. Besides I said before live WRCars seem to tend to sound better than on video and S2000 cars even more struggling and quieter.

I do agree though on the early and way too fast gear changes spoiling the turbo brute noises a lot. Indeed even the Focus, when I saw them life on Rally Deutschland last year, I was surprised how sweet and great they actually sounded! But then take this last Focus video linked here, do you actually notice a gear change in engine revs at all. Is this a DAF variomatic. While WRC teams seem to try to tell us the S2000 gearbox is not strong enough for turbos, I feel they need even cheaper gearboes than S2000 ones!



 Re: WRC S2000Turbo future by Chris B

26-Mar-09 05:22 PM 

Besides on German motorsport-total.com is an article in which Volkswagen Motorsport boss Kris Nissen confirms that Volkswagen cancelled their WRC plans for th time being and states that for Volkswagen to enter WRC, we need at least -
- turbo engines
- better marketing than now
- more rule stability than now

Clear enough words how to scare away a potential new manufacturer!



 Re: WRC S2000Turbo future by levingt

26-Mar-09 10:01 PM 

"Who jumps up and down for these votes for Rally?"

I take it there aren't any drivers or spectator associations that represent Rally that you guys and I know about.

Funny you should mention VW because I envision them, being one of the largest motor industry companies, taking a big role in increasing household awareness of Rally and FIA motorsport.

I emailed an overview of what I called a 'replicable regional marketing concept' to ddb. Anyhow I think to get things right at the sharp end there is a need to push things at regional level where people can be engaged with greater regularity and on terms that are relevant to them.

I have to say I find all Rally cars sweet on the ears the GT4 ST165 was one of my favs but now in my perfect world it would be nice if all the hills were alive with the sound of WRCars, S2000, F2, S1600 and Grp N all separate classes to avoid any confusion. And perhaps any Group N turbo 4wd's run with a restictor that gives better parity with S2000 and only suspension and brake modifications allowable.



 Re: WRC S2000Turbo future by Chris B

27-Mar-09 04:26 AM 

On the votes, I am not sure if it is the national car clubs like RAC or AA or the national motorsport authorities, called ASN, like RAC MSA. But even if it is latter, as far as I know all FIA accepting countries are included, even those without any real motorsport, like say Kongo....

The Celica is another car that sounded absolutely beautiful.

And you have a big point with the "need to push at regional level"! I find it ironic that the WRC sees the need of having cars unique to them. The WRC should be like the top of the pyramid. Maybe have the longest and craziest events, but build on a string base i.e. with general and technical regs. This base is missing. WRCars are not allowed in most countries and anyway on FIA request. Even in sub categories there are different ways. I.e. for FIA generally S2000 is comparable to N4, in France - quite rightly I may add - S2000 run in A7S, a class even above A7! This applies to many details, but the simple example is the cars that the WRC wants to be unique to them.
- For one I blame this as a reason why we have no competition to Loeb. I.e. unlike McRae and Burns, a British Champion these days has not had the chance to prove what he can do in a top WRCar against WRC stars. So why would anyone employ them. I see the WRC wants to be unique, but what was the harm in Mikkola, Blomqvist starting BRC rounds.
- And which manufacturer is going to develop cars that cost 700,000 Euros each, when he does not have the chance to run them anywheere else, nor to sell them.



 Re: WRC S2000Turbo future by m4d-mike

1-Apr-09 05:24 AM 

i think the real reason the wrc cars are restricted below wrc level is an attempt to reduce the cost to the privateer and younger drivers get a leg up but it seems the only thing they have achieved is to force the younger drivers to pay millions to drive at wrc level. A bit of a false economy if i do say so myself,
the best solution would be for every manufacturer to stick thier standard 2l engine in an s2000 car turbo with the 34 mil restrictor and 1 bar boost. standard ecu and the h pattern gearbox. then for the price of a focus you could run a season in the turbo 2000 fiesta.

i like that name for it too.



 Re: WRC S2000Turbo future by Chris B

1-Apr-09 09:42 AM 

HERE HERE, SPOT ON!!!!

WRCars restricted below WRC level, you mean M2 teams - they get older cars for I don't know why, you might be right. Besides I don't see why a manufacturer would be interested giving them the latest cars. If WRCars banned outside WRC, the FIA wants to have exclusivity to the WRC, nothing to do with economics. Though that idea I find utterly wrong too, it is actually back firing on the WRC itself.



 Re: WRC S2000Turbo future by RonSkoda

2-Apr-09 08:24 AM 

Well Armin Schwarz agrees with me that WRC should go straight to 1.6 turbo but on the contrary says he sees the current plan as an advantage for IRC:

http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=cs&sl=cs&tl=en&u=http://www.ewrc.cz/ewrc/show.php%3Fid%3D10848



 Re: WRC S2000Turbo future by m4d-mike

2-Apr-09 04:54 PM 

i can see where your coming from with the 1.6 turbo idea but how long before the manufacturers come up with a new device that deals with any disadvantage of using 1.6. the current format is actually fine and we would not be arguing if there was more brand names rallying, the only solution is to remove the 100k gearboxes and the other 200k of tech like launch control, turbo boost power assistors which keep the boost constant. stage and road maps in the ecu, all this crap is making it a tech war not a driver/machine competition. simple solution rght now would be, if its not on the road it dont get to rally, or like i said before fwd turbo.

megane225 golf gti, focus rs, mazda rx8 bmw 130 the list goes on and its a simple swing back to grpA, even ford has decided rthat the nwe cosworth don need 4x4


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