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 Re: WRC S2000Turbo future by bringbackrealrallying

3-Apr-09 05:17 AM 

I agree totally. The world rally championship has turned into a techno geeks paradise, just like F1. The problem with the current rules is the technical freedom, as long as this is kept, whether the engine is a 2L normaly aspirated job or a 1.6L turbo, the costs will remain sky high no works teams will want to compete and no private teams will be able to afford the cars. I agree with M4d-mike's formulae ideas. The cars should be near enough road cars, with say modified suspension, bigger wheel arches, stripped out interior, a role cage and bigger brakes. The rest can be like the road cars. Road car engines are sufficiently powerful to make them entertaining enough. I don't see why everyones engine has to be the same.
Who actually got interested in Rallying for technical reasons anyway. I know I didnt. Most people like rallying because the cars look(ed) good, sound(ed) good and the rallies themselves are/were interesting. I'll put it another way, there was an article on another rally website which was on about how Ford were testing out improvments for Portugal such as a lighter flywheel. I thought to myself, am I supposed to find that interesting, what a waste of money. It also reported that the drivers said there was a very slight improvement in overall performance. So, Ford have spent god knows how much designing, making and testing a light weight fly wheel that has very little impact on performance when they only have one competitor, there accountant must cry himself to sleep.



 Re: WRC S2000Turbo future by Chris B

3-Apr-09 06:54 AM 

I absolutely agree on everything said in the last posts, including Armin Schwarz's comments!

S2000 in engine concept simply is not the future. And even if you argue me to them sounding and pulling boring, at least they are not that much more exciting than other concepts to justify keeping them.

What bringbackrealrallying just said and maybe less clear but same direction also m4d, that is exactly my grudge at S2000, apart from the atmo engine. I really can't see S2000 being the solution for our problems as it is a kit car formula just like WRCars! The Focus WRC lighter fly wheel engineering is silly, hugely expensive and does not add to the excitement. I said before I blame the annual homologations and works drivers only in latest cars for a lot of the expense, and it is also a rule that does not add to excitement in any way.

As for S2000, sure they have less electronics than WRCars, but they are still kit cars with a lot of freedom. And with that freedom we never know what the best engineers in the world come up with next. Maybe we gain a 10th next with a fart air wave ignition booster. Kit cars simply are the wrong way. That I like a road car relation is a completely different aspect. We don't need to tune down as far as using gN cars for top flight rallying. But with kit cars, we let teams engineer crazy details and then ban these items. We should have a road car, a list of changes that are allowed, and what is not on this list nor on the road car is banned, basta!



 Re: WRC S2000Turbo future by Ron@Work

29-Apr-09 02:29 AM 

Now the WMSC are due to discuss the possibility of bringing the 1.6 turbos forward to 2011 at their next meeting in June.

This is what I had suggested a couple of months back, and I still think it is the right thing to do...

But they should have made this decision already instead of changing the rules yet again! Citroen have now halted work on their S2000 car until they make a decision.



 Re: WRC S2000Turbo future by Chris B

29-Apr-09 05:27 AM 

Yep, that's what they should have done in the first place. Strange people who think they save money and attract new teams in launching a car category that is obsolete after 2 years only!

But then again, isn't this typical, u-turn after u-turn after u-turn, especially u-turns on confirmed rules. S2000+T was already confirmed when it was u-turned! Then S2000 minus was confirmed. Citroen and Ford both have started working on their cars. Two points,

- Although 1600cc Turbo is absolutely the way to go, with S2000 having been confirmed hope Citroen sues the FIA to get their invested expenses back! Not sure about Ford, but Citroen is quite a way into the project already and with the Peugeot 207 S2000 there would then be no need for a Citroen S2000 car, Citroen never wanted to do it in the first place, leave S2000 and IRC to their PSA sister!

- If this 1600 Turbo engine is a custom engine, as the FIA discussed for 2013, I have heard very clear hints that PSA is going to leave the sport forever! The engines are the technical hearts of the cars, PSA will never promote the engine of another manufacturer!



 Re: WRC S2000Turbo future by RonSkoda

29-Apr-09 08:02 AM 

Exactly, I think this is the 4th set of proposed rules this year!

They must make a final decision at the meeting in June and set the regulations in stone.



 Re: WRC S2000Turbo future by Chris B

29-Apr-09 09:51 AM 

At this rate they will decide the 2011 rules around 2012!

I am also tempted to say I hope they do not confirm 1600cc turbo, because if they confirm them, we are almost guaranteed it will NOT happen!

Don't know in which thread we discussed that, but I also have read a Petter Solberg comment on his Abarth Grande Punto S2000 test. Rumours he may drive this car in some IRC rounds could not be more wrong. He smashed the S2000 car as badly as Loeb and Stohl did in the past, if not worse, making comments like he was shocked how boring this car was to drive. So I guess he stays away from S2000 cars as long as possible.



 Re: WRC S2000Turbo future by RonSkoda

29-Apr-09 11:13 AM 

Blah blah, can you find a link to that?

I would take Stohl's commetns with a pinch of salt anyway because:

a) He wasn't very quick when he drove an S2000 car
b) He owns a preparation business specialising in traditional N4s



 Re: WRC S2000Turbo future by onthelimit

29-Apr-09 12:24 AM 

Link for Solberg's comments on S2000:
http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=el&ie=UTF-8&sl=de&tl=en&u=http://www.rallye-magazin.de/&prev=_t
I like this guy. I mean he is a true rally fan. He has never feared to say what he believes and he does it from his original passion for rallying.
As for the rules changings i think we have to wait and see if Mosley will remain president after October.



 Re: WRC S2000Turbo future by RonSkoda

29-Apr-09 03:20 PM 

Hmm, that is hardly the blasting that Chris talked about, he only said he would prefer to drive a World Rally Car.

WRC cannot afford to wait until October, and anyhow I think it is quite likely now that Mosely will stay for another term.



 Re: WRC S2000Turbo future by Chris B

29-Apr-09 07:57 PM 

Maybe fond the original text and use another translating engine. As so often with them translators and complicated German, sentenses are back to front, weird words used and the result is very different. In the original text Petter said that driving this S2000 car was a rude wake up call and he can only tell his mates to enjoy the WRCars as long as they can, such between the lines clearly saying that S2000 cars are not enjoyable.



 Re: WRC S2000Turbo future by Chris B

29-Apr-09 07:58 PM 

Besides I hope Mosley stays for another term. 1 - he is funny, 2 - he is the best that could happen to IRC.



 Re: WRC S2000Turbo future by Chris B

30-Apr-09 03:27 AM 

Hmm, only just saw the Stohl comments now.

"I would take Stohl's commetns with a pinch of salt anyway because:

a) He wasn't very quick when he drove an S2000 car
b) He owns a preparation business specialising in traditional N4s"

a) True, but this could be a fav subject of mine. In Portugal Stohl was 7th and Duval until retirement was 4th, showing how competitive the IRC is. Compared to Stohl's best WRC results, also showing that the 307 WRC was probably much better than people believe. On the subject here however interestingly Stohl was full of praise for the IRC but slammed the S2000 cars

B) but he is not tied to a manufacturer. There is nothing to stop him preparing an S2000 car, which also would likely be more lucrative to his business than gN.

And Stohl is not the only driver slamming them, although kudos to Petter for I thought he slammed them quite openly in the original text. As mentioned here before, Petter is a very enthusiastic guy, he says what he thinks and I also could not imagine another driver building up his own team. If people thought before I am slamming Petter, well he did make a few comments some years back in which he seemed arrogant, but not so lately and my main gripe was not him but his Subaru car, a gripe to which Petter today would most likely agree.

Oh well, back to subject. A 1600cc straight-4 custom engine, would this tempt Subaru back to rallying...



 Re: WRC S2000Turbo future by Gregor

30-Apr-09 09:59 AM 

A custom engine would quite literally tear the heart out of the sport for manufacturers. Even F1 where the only notable difference in cars is the paint and adverts would suffer. There are already plenty of one-make series.



 Re: WRC S2000Turbo future by bringbackrealrallying

30-Apr-09 03:15 PM 

I'm guessing some people on here from Britain must read Autosport magazine. I was having a swift browse of it today when I was interupted and told to get a move on by the person giving me a lift. what I did get to read was that the FIA and ISC were planning the biggest overhaul of the WRC in its history, taking it back to the fans and privateers and (against the wishes of Citroen and Ford) ditching the winter series idea. That was as far as I got.

Am I way behind here, has this already been discussed? If so, what are the plans? Is it as promising as it sounds or more rollocks?



 Re: WRC S2000Turbo future by AndyRAC

30-Apr-09 03:29 PM 

I haven't seen Autosport, but MNews was just as interesting yesterday....
Winter calendar dropped, but Ford/Citroen not happy - TOUGH!! It was a stupid idea. The reason people weren't watching was because the WRC is pants, no other reason.
They seem to want to go back to more 'Traditional' events - and so say all of us!
Reverting back to the old names - RAC, 1000 Lakes, etc

At the moment, I'm mildly optimistic.....

One final point, doesn't look like the Monte is in the WRC next year.....shame!


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