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 Re: WRC S2000Turbo future by Chris B

4-May-09 11:34 AM 

In our ongoing discussion, read this and keep on reading, issue 44, starting page 34....

http://mag.gpweek.com/

Comments of Abarth team manager Nic Gullino and Meeke navigator Paul Nahgelle - sorry, I find his EuroSport Germany name funny.

Not much to be added, in fact interesting to see that a team manager and a (co-)driver share the views of myself and most of us.

Only gripe when Nic Gullino says 'if future WRCars are exactly as S2000 cars without kit, it will bring the sport back to where it was in the mid 1990s'. Actually I agree, but opposed to his view because in 1995-1997 we had only 1 manufacturer fighting for the manufacturer title. Nic himself says somewheere with the atmo S2000 as it is there is no cost control.

Anyway, interesting, very true comments, enjoy!



 Re: WRC S2000Turbo future by Ron@Work

27-May-09 06:42 AM 

Gigi Galli seems to have changed his opinion on S2000 now that he has driven one, but strangely he also says he is looking to do some more testing so he can prepare himself for driving the Fiesta. It looks like his ambition is to be a Stobart pay driver once more!:

http://www.rallye-info.com/article.asp?sid=0&stid=7935



 Re: WRC S2000Turbo future by Gregor

27-May-09 12:24 AM 

Can Stobart get into IRC with a Fiesta or are they chained to the WRC and what ever car they end up using? Galli would be a nice addition to IRC events.



 Re: WRC S2000Turbo future by Chris B

28-May-09 05:53 PM 

Interesting thought, but I think in contrary to what WRC organisers keep telling us with the 2-car teams, the Stobart thing is based on doing the same events as the works team, to share money, logistics and resources, because running 4 cars is much cheaper per car than running 2.

Besides, remember Citroen have stopped development of their S2000 car. Depending what the FIA is deciding end June, a Fiesta S2000 will never exist. And Galli would like that idea, because his gripe at S2000 until now was not the general concept, not the handling, but the joke of torque they have.



 Re: WRC S2000Turbo future by Chris B

28-May-09 05:55 PM 

...meaning the turbo engine still requires a different style, but in the basic car non-electronic handling getting experience with an S2000 would still be worthwhile, even if the future is 1600 turbo.



 Re: WRC S2000Turbo future by teamanager

3-Jun-09 05:27 PM 

I seem to be swimming against the current here....I find the concept of a 1600 Turbo incredibly depressing in terms of the absolute top level of rallying in the world. It's just not exciting....to me, anyway.

Maybe it'll be better than it sounds....I hope so, anyway.



 Re: WRC S2000Turbo future by Radiv

4-Jun-09 03:32 AM 

What is the latest in the FIA game ?

Do we know any of the rumors for the 24 June meeting, where it all is supposed to be decided ?



 Re: WRC S2000Turbo future by Ron@Work

4-Jun-09 05:00 AM 

"I seem to be swimming against the current here....I find the concept of a 1600 Turbo incredibly depressing in terms of the absolute top level of rallying in the world. It's just not exciting....to me, anyway."

Why do you think that? The power and torque shouldn't be that much down on the 2.0Turbos and if they have the simpler S2000 transmission they should be much better to watch than the current breed of WRCs IMO.



 Re: WRC S2000Turbo future by Chris B

4-Jun-09 05:56 AM 

On this one I am with Ron. What makes the S2000 cars more interesting to watch is the simpler, less electronics transmission, not at all the engine. I also don't understand why so many people say the S2000s sound good. Ever heard one live? They don't sound better, nor louder than an S1600, they are nowheere near an Escort BDA or M3, not to mention a V6, V8 or a proper turbo a la Quattro.

The only argument I can find against turbos is that the turbos have a larger usable power band, such are a little easier to drive, but also safer. Because you have the power when you need it, triple the torque of an S2000 but the same suspension and transmission technology than S2000 to me means they will slide even more!

Lastly one point nobody seemed to believe me is the cost and reliability advantage of a forced induction vs a peaky high rev engine. To that see http://mag.gpweek.com/ of this week, page 18, engineers or "people within the industry" confirm that the turbo engine will be much cheaper to develop than an S2000 engine, not even considering the fact S2000 would only stay in WRC for 2 years!



 Re: WRC S2000Turbo future by onthelimit

8-Jun-09 06:02 PM 

For me it's very simple. Max Mosley wants slower cars in every aspect of motorsports.
See whats going on in F1. If the next year's rules are going to be like Mosley wants F1 speed will be almost the same like GP2 cars.
The same happens in WRC. S2000 are very slow. Actually they are slower than Group N cars in rough gravel rallies. i can't imagine a world rally campionship with S2000. It's madness.



 Re: WRC S2000Turbo future by Ron@Work

9-Jun-09 02:11 AM 

There are a few things to be said about that:

- I do not believe S2000 cars are slower than Grp Ns pretty much anywhere. If you are looking at pWRC there are a number of factors maybe distorting this; I don't believe the S2000 drivers in pWRC are especially quick, secondly the S2000 cars in pWRC have to use the control fuel which has been designed for turbo engines. Thirdly they are using very heavy control tyres which also do not suit the S2000 cars.

You may be right that Grp Ns are closer to S2000s on rough gravel, and of course this is accentuated by the fact that almost all of the pWRC calendar is made up of rough gravel events!

One more thing to say, is that even in pWRC where the times between the two categories are closer, the S2000 will at least look like they are going twice as fast!

What I mean is that outright speed does not matter so much, especially if you are watching on tv. WRCars are very fast of course, but also very boring.

Anyhow, this is all irrelevant as it looks highly likely that WRC will now go S2000 spec with 1.6 turbo engines. Which, IMO, is the right decision, even if I remain sceptical until I see it that the cars will actually stay cheap and look/sound exctiting. They should, but I am sure the FIA/Manufacturers will manage to balls it up somehow!



 Re: WRC S2000Turbo future by Chris B

18-Aug-09 05:52 PM 

Sorry, not really fitting, but we have discussed similar so often, I did not want to start a new thread for this:

http://www.rallybuzz.com/wrc-manu-2011/

Oh dear God, our WRC promoters still haven't understood this show!

He doesn't want more than 4 manufacturers. That's like saying 2-car teams is better than 3-car teams. Or why not go straight to 1-car teams!

OK, he has a point in for the last manufacturer it was embarrassing. But that was Hyundai, they seemingly wanted to embarrass themselves! Point is, this is not only about quantity, but about quality!

Well, we had that situation he aimed for last year! We had Citroen, Ford, Subaru and Suzuki. Only 2 of them could win, the other 2 were embarrassing themselves. Wheere is that better than what we had when ISC started in 2000. To his own words between lines, we would be better off with 2 manufacturer as now, than with the 4 we had last year.

I don't get it. In 2000, when ISC took over this show, we had 7 manufacturers - and Citroen was not one of them! Still, 4 of them could win rallies, Seat could get podiums, Skoda was new and got podiums the following year, the only one you could forget of them was Hyundai, and that was not for the rules but for who Hyundai are! In 2002, the year taht the FIA thought was so boring that we needed to start fiddling with points systems, that year we still had 4 winning makes and 7 different winning drivers. In the 2000-2002 period we had 8 manufacturers, 5 different winning makes, 7 out of 8 made podium finishes, only Hyundai didn't. We had 11 different drivers winning WRC rounds! What an ace time! How can you then say we only want 4 manufacturers and not rule out Volkswagen, Suzuki, Hyundai and the likes in those 4. I believe will never understand the thinking behind WRC these days.



 Re: WRC S2000Turbo future by Chris B

18-Aug-09 06:11 PM 

Actually, sorry if this winds me up. But if the ISC boss says here that when they took over the show, beyond the top4 manufacturers nobody could get even near the podium, he simply is wrong and proves that he doesn't even know how big a damage to this sport the ISC and more actually the FIA has creaated!

Alone 2000 and 2001, even winning manufacturers were Peugeot, Ford, Subaru, Mitsubishi and Citroen, podium finishing manufactuers were Peugeot, Ford, Subaru, Mitsubishi, Citroen, Seat, Skoda and Toyota. That's 5 winning and 8 podium finishing manufacturers, if ISC believes beyond the top4 everything was not effective, well then I am lost for words really!



 Re: WRC S2000Turbo future by AndyRAC

19-Aug-09 06:29 AM 

While I understand his point - I don't agree with him.
Only 4 Manufacturers, as you say, we had that last year - and it was rubbish. If there are only 4 in the future, they must be reasonably level, and more importantly, there must be Privateer cars made available - which can challenge the works teams. Not like we have now.
It's okay to have 5-7 Manufacturers, providing they are all competitive - if not, the least competitive will walk away.
On another point - the VW rumour about the TDI Scirocco - didn't they ask for special dispensation, but Ford/Citroen said NO!! What if it had been Kia, Lada,etc ? I think they would have said okay.



 Re: WRC S2000Turbo future by Gregor

19-Aug-09 01:09 PM 

It's depressing that someone with that attitude is running the show. I could understand if there was some logic that they wanted a series with 'no losers' where everyone gets points for trying. They would catch hell for saying so and it would destroy the credibility of the series, but at least it would be based on a plan and not a dead wrong analysis of the past.


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