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 Re: WRC S2000Turbo future by FCP

22-Mar-08 03:52 PM 

Guys does the 2wd vs 4wd drive really matter Ive been following this thread and it seems to me that there are just too many problems with the WRC right now. I really dont think that eliminating 4wd the WRC formula will fix anything. WRC teams would most likely do what F1 teams do every season try to claw back the lost performance that occurred thanks to the change in regulations.
I think the biggest issue remains costs. Id say keep 4wd, just try to make it cheap. Turbos, keep them too, but do some kind of standardization. Even suspensions, maybe it can happen that they become less complex, lets face it Ford has a pretty fancy suspension and they are going to force the hand of other teams to try to match them in that area. What about things like aerodynamics these wrc cars do not require much downforce, at least i think so, because they have more than enough mechanical grip. So why not limit some aspects of aerodynamic appendages.
I am not trying to make rallying a spec series everyone drives the same car. But i think that if the developmentdevelopment costs are limited and the cars happen to be simplified even if they dont become so close to a road car, we are bound to see more manufacturers and more competition and that will bring a better spectacle.
I was thinking, I dont think that Loeb is going to push too much if he sees his competition 1 and a half minutes behind him, but if he needed to push in order to win, be it the rally or the championship, then we are going to see a Loeb driving the car more sideways. I am just saying, the current formula may not be so bad, maybe is just too expensive.
Although I like that at least they are looking some aggressive changes in order to improve the series.



 Re: WRC S2000Turbo future by teamanager

24-Mar-08 03:51 PM 

OK, I've been quiet for a while....

As most of the regulars on this thread know, I am a fervent believer in 4WD. Maybe that's because I live in the interior of British Columbia, where there are lots of mountain gravel roads, and where we get at least four months a year of what is sometimes extreme weather. Frankly, I do not ever expect to buy a non-4wd car again, of any configuration. I currently drive a Subaru WRX (2.5 litre turbo) which I really like.

So, I'm in favour of 4WD. What I am against is a set of rules and regulations that try to make all rally cars the same. Frankly, I believe that all rally cars should be based on existing road cars - with limited modifications allowed. As such, I'd hope to see a wide variety of different cars out there and all eligible for World Championship points. 4WD, RWD and FWD, all together. Then we could see some of these lightweight FWD cars running against all others, and we could see some VARIETY in the rallies.

Like Chris, I believe that on certain rallies a good lightweight FWD car could well be on the podium - or even win - at several of the classic rallies. Catalunya and Corsica come to mind for that. Similarly, I would expect the 4WD cars to do well in Sweden, Norway, and probably Great Britain if its wet and muddy enough.

So lets see the manufacturers running the same type of cars as they sell, for once. I guess that's why I remain a Subaru fan, and why I also have great respect for Mitsubishi's Lancers over the past few years. Yes, there are many detail differences between their Group N cars to the cars you can buy, often quite big differences, but the basic configuration remains the same.

I can identify with the Subaru rally cars, and I can't identify with the Fords and the Citroens. Those are specialist racing cars built to a particular formula, and I find it very irritating that they market the Focus, Xsara and C4 based on the rally results of something that is not even built to the same concept.

Throw them all in together, in road car based rally cars. I've had enough of WRC or S2000 formulas. Rally the sort of vehicles that you offer for sale, or stay out of it.

Hah....I feel better now.



 Re: WRC S2000Turbo future by Chris B

25-Mar-08 01:09 AM 

Feel better now? ... and talk a lot of sense!

I am the first one to say
a) I want a virety
b) cars marketed in rallying should have a road car relation.

The only objection I have with your ideas is that in most rallies any other concept but 4x4 turbo can't succeed as long as 4x4 is allowed. If we went ahead like that, I fear we end up with a one-makes style series as boring as groupN / PWRC.

Other than that I fully agree. I come from the corner liking Citroen and Ford, or Peugeot and Fiat for that matter. - your line "Those are specialist racing cars built to a particular formula" is the perfect description of S2000. And yes, I do find it a joke that with these cars and their successes road cars as Citroen C4 are marketed. I want more road car relation.

The ultimate joke in my eyes is that the leading IRC / S2000 cars, which are Peugeot 207 and Abarth Grande Punto, in S2000 obviously 4x4 but turo banned, their road equivalents have turbo engines throughout the range but 4x4 is not available nor planned in near or distant future! And that the rule makers should look at to identify a technical spec for a rally formula (apart from cars without 4x4 would be cheaper and have less grip). The ultimate question then would be - as I find it hard to believe a formula can be invented that puts 4x4 and 2WD on similar performance levels for most events (ideas?) - who should we loose, who would be the lesser price to pay, loose only the 2 manufacturers or loose absolutely everybody else?



 Re: WRC S2000Turbo future by fancy

26-Mar-08 11:43 AM 

OK guys, from 2011 on, WRC is going to be based on S2000 and Group N cars. It's official.

http://www.crash.net/motorsport/wrc/news/161223-0/stay_of_execution_for_wrc_cars.html



 Re: WRC S2000Turbo future by RonSkoda

26-Mar-08 02:27 PM 

Good news.



 Re: WRC S2000Turbo future by Radiv

26-Mar-08 02:43 PM 

Yes, and they can be used already from 09 !

Who will be the first one ?



 Re: WRC S2000Turbo future by Stokely

26-Mar-08 02:43 PM 

I'm not familiar with the S2000 regulations. Does this mean WRC cars will remain 4wd or be limited to 2wd?



 Re: WRC S2000Turbo future by RonSkoda

26-Mar-08 03:06 PM 

4wd, but all diffs are passive.

Abarth or Peugeot are good candidates for the first - the current WRC manufacturers won't move until necessary as these cars won't be as fast as a current WRCar (unless they allowed to keep the lower weight)



 Re: WRC S2000Turbo future by fancy

27-Mar-08 01:58 AM 

/* (unless they allowed to keep the lower weight) */

I think this is exactly what this rule is about. Guess they'll introduce weight liimit that is considerably below the current one. That's also why they said: "the current WRC machines will also be allowed to compete". I mean, if you don't equalize the performance of the two, there wouldn't be point in different types of machines competing. Keeping the weight of the new cars down seems the only logical way to make their performance match WRC cars :)



 Re: WRC S2000Turbo future by Radiv

27-Mar-08 05:49 AM 

I think they will add Turbo Restrictiors on the current WR Car to equal out with the new format car.



 Re: WRC S2000Turbo future by starboardtac

27-Mar-08 11:13 AM 

From the news article: "The WRC Car will be based on the current Super 2000 and Group N cars, fitted with a supplementary kit, which includes turbo and rear-wing additions. The kit must be able to be fitted or removed within a defined time limit, to be determined."

"Removed within a defined time limit..."

What the hell does THAT mean? and why?!

Correct me if I am wrong, but wouldn't the engine need a different compression ratio for the turbo add in order to avoid detonation? How do you easily change that?



 Re: WRC S2000Turbo future by teamanager

27-Mar-08 12:50 AM 

I would read that as "fitted or removed", not used. Particularly with the wing, it would seem they want to prevent something that is actually built into the shell. It has to be a "bolt on" accessory.

Makes sense for the manufacturers too....they can sell them as accessories.



 Re: WRC S2000Turbo future by Radiv

17-May-08 10:58 AM 

Guess you can change the engine head and get a turbo compression. That is not too hard, if the pistons can stay the same ?

Rumors says that Abarth has started to test a S2000+ car !



 Re: WRC S2000Turbo future by Martini Lancia

17-May-08 11:43 AM 

Maybe they should concentrate on getting their normal S2000 car right...



 Re: WRC S2000Turbo future by Radiv

17-May-08 03:15 PM 

Good point, hopefully they have two teams working on different car programs !


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