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 Re: WRC Teams and Drivers 2009 by RonSkoda

26-Jan-09 03:32 AM 

Radiv, so it looks like no permanent WRC programme for Petter in 2009?

 Re: WRC Teams and Drivers 2009 by Radiv

26-Jan-09 05:00 AM 

Nobody knowes yet. I guess we will know more during Rally Norway.

I think he will drive ed rallies, and work towards 2010 at the same time.
Proton testing or something else, maybe just getting an exsisting team.

I do not think he has everything 100 ready yet, but I think he is very happy to have landed this issue for now.

Will be interesting to see how the two ex-Subaru boys will compare in Xsara and C4 !!!

 Re: WRC Teams and Drivers 2009 by RonSkoda

26-Jan-09 05:07 AM 

The Xsara is a good choice for Petter. Can't see it being much slower than the Impreza but if he doesn't score a top result he can blame it on the "old car"

Personally speaking, I prefer to see him in a Xsara too as it is a much nicer car to watch than the Focus for example.

 Re: WRC Teams and Drivers 2009 by Chris B

26-Jan-09 11:29 AM 

"Personally speaking, I prefer to see him in a Xsara too as it is a much nicer car to watch than the Focus for example."

I actually think the Xsara is quite old now. It was slower than the 307, as many drivers told, and surely the 307 is no more competitive with modern cars. However who knows, maybe it is still up with the Subaru. Though I like the idea of variety. Xsara is a nice shape of car and nice to see something different than C4 and Focus. However your sentence tempts me to say "if you want something nicer to look at, Petter should start Norway in a Mk2 Escort BDA!"

 Re: WRC Teams and Drivers 2009 by Chris B

26-Jan-09 11:30 AM 

Something nicer to watch I meant with the BDA....

 Re: WRC Teams and Drivers 2009 by RonSkoda

28-Jan-09 12:31 AM 

Actually I think I am one of the few people who don't like the MK2 Escort!

Can't quite put my finger on why, but I don't really like the looks of the car and I'm not so keen on the "over the top" sliding. I like a car you can slide when you are agressive with it, but an Escort looks like my granny could slide it is so loose!

 Re: WRC Teams and Drivers 2009 by Chris B

29-Jan-09 05:16 AM 

Hmm, I love the Escort Mk2. Tho different tastes, why not. I hated the Escort Mk1 for its barrock useless curves. Well, not hated, but I like clear lines, such also Granada Mk1 not my thing at all, Granada Mk2, absolutely love it.

How you describe the over the top sliding, the Escort is still pretty normal, but when you drive wild, you had a lot of fun and a very, very forgiving car. Your words remind me of a Sunbeam Avenger Tiger I once tried. Extreme fun, absolutely great, but surrounding an obstruction without the rear stepping out, now there was a challenge! It was more difficult to drive this car normally than driving it sideways. To my mind all modern cars should have ESP programmed such surrounding corners other than sideways is not possible! :-)

Hmm, bit off subject....

 Re: WRC Teams and Drivers 2009 by moogy

15-Apr-09 03:16 PM 

looks like we are only going to have 11 rounds of wrc rallies this year.
welsh assembly have pulled backing of the wales rallyGB even though they were tied in to a contract untill and including 2011.
WRC is fast becoming a joke.

 Re: WRC Teams and Drivers 2009 by Chris B

16-Apr-09 06:20 AM 

Never mind, we have the RAC MSA rally as season closer, and we have it in IRC, where charges for a badly managed championship and charges for non-existent media are not so high for the event organisers.

One curiosity, showing the bad management of the WRC. The original source of these news, which is the BBC, states that the organisers would sue the Welsh Tourist Board or Assembly, because they have a contract until 2011. But curiosly I am not sure this would stand at court. The contract was signed early 2006 and I am sure the contract was about annual WRC events until incl. 2011. If 2010 Wales Rally GB is not a WRC round, is it not the organisers who could be blamed for breaking contract first? OK, this would be for the 2010 event, but if the basic frame for this contract is no more existing, and so for the duration of the contract the Welsh Assembly does not get what they were promised, what contract is the Welsh assembly breaking.

 Re: WRC Teams and Drivers 2009 by AndyRAC

16-Apr-09 07:46 AM 

And that is the point - they were expecting a World event every year, now they're not getting one.
The Welsh Assembly are concentrating 2010 for the Ryder Cup - which is a huge event. Be honest, RallyGB is a 3rd rate event. In all the press releases, all that is mentioned is how much money was made having the event in SWales, nothing about the sporting side of the event.

 Re: WRC Teams and Drivers 2009 by m4d-mike

16-Apr-09 01:18 PM 

hm maybe if all the countries start acting like this we will ge the rac rally back. because its not the organisers that cut it down it was the fia. single service parks and limiting the rallies to 350 km competitive

 Re: WRC Teams and Drivers 2009 by Chris B

16-Apr-09 08:33 PM 

Aha, Ryders, Cup - unfortunately another sport the German TV treats as more secret than Scotland Yard documents...

Anyway, I am not sure of the wording of the contract the Wales Rally GB organisers have with the Welsh Assembly Government. But it underlines my fears of what damage has been done by rotation and mini events. It is what I am saying all along. Do bring this sport forward we need marke, aka memorable and recognisable events, and clover leaf and rotation simply goes the completely wrong direction!

When we had a nation wide RAC, it was the biggest sporting event of the UK every year without a doubt and with millions of spectators. Now the event is confined to a small part of Wales and barely over 100,000 spectators.

And if on top of this for 2010 the Wales Rally GB is not even a World Championship round, I can well see that the Ryders Cup is the bigger and more marketing lucrative event.

It may seem unfair that the 2009 rally as still a WRC round is affected by the 2010 Ryders Cup. But what is the wording of the contract. Were the sponsors promised a World Championship event every year until including 2011. And now they are not getting this and therefore have to look at alternatives. The link to the Ryders Cup 2010 eating the original Wales Rally GB budget seems to point in exactly this direction!

I can well see this being the Welsh Government thinking behind it - if the 2010 rally is not a World Championship round, they have to look at alternatives, and if this alternative affects other parts of the original multi year contract, well if this contract promised them a World Championship rally for 2010 and they are not getting one, then I dont think it is the Welsh government who is breaking contracts here!

Quite silly if you ask me. Maybe as a normal rally fan I should vote for the rally organisers, maybe I turned too pessimistic for having lost trust in the running of the WRC and I turned biased to IRC for you know the reasons. ut we are getting the news minly motorsport biased sources. The negative or pro Welsh government words I said, think about it, they would make sense in the eyes of court, dont they!

 Re: WRC Teams and Drivers 2009 by bringbackrealrallying

17-Apr-09 11:18 AM 

its pathetic isnt it, its almost as if the FIA & ISC co wrote the book "how to lose friends & alienate people"! I wont shed any tears over the demise of Rally GB/Tour of Resolven, but it does go to show how much of a mess the WRC is. Hopefully from its fall a proper RAC will takes it place somewhere, maybe in the IRC.

The current regime inherited a great series, there were great individual events which contributed to the perfect overall show and one by one they have dismantled each and every positve aspect of the series. Now we have rallies with no histories, crap drivers no-one gives a toss about and 2 works teams. In his book "Rally" Reinhard Klein says "they may have got rid of the tarmac stages around Sintra but Portugal without Arganil would be unthinkable". Well, Reinhard, its happened and that is just one tiny example of what has happened everywhere. The WRC has stripped pretty much every event of its defining characteristics and destroyed them.

In my opinion a root and branch overhaul of everything to do with the WRC is the only option if it is to regain any of its respect. Replacing WRC car rules with S2000 would be barely the tiniest scratch at the surface. The FIA and ISC have to crawl back to whichever hole they came out of and leave the organisation of the events with the events themselves. The old calendar (which may have changed a bit over the years but could be followed in general) has to come back with the events in their proper locations. The events need to be rally's rather than little sprints and the cars need to be taken back as close to production class as is reasonable with a few tweakes. The teams need to be allowed to compete wherever with whoever they want and the TV rights can be flogged to the highest bidder who would have no say in any running of the series.

If that doesnt happen then in time the IRC will quickly take over.

And breathe!

 Re: WRC Teams and Drivers 2009 by Chris B

17-Apr-09 09:41 PM 

Very good post! Love it and if some of the forces would read our discussion here, maybe it would give some good ideas to them.

“Hopefully its fall a proper RAC will takes it place some, maybe in the IRC.”

I outed myself already that – maybe I sometimes sound too pessimistic – I would quite like to see the WRC die, ecause that makes the way free for the IRC to become the World Championship. And by all that I have seen in the past years, I lost trust as well as interest in WRC, while I elieve the IRC manage their series and the entire sport much better!

In this context the irony is that when the WRC Wales Rally GB is cancelled, we still have the IRC RAC Scottish rally survive and such we still have GB as the international rally season final! Part of this irony is that – even a way too short IRC event – officially carries the traditional RAC name. Maybe this is partly proof how overly demanding things have become in WRC. For the non-British fans here, like most countries GB has several motoring organisations, like the FFSA in France or the ADAC in Germany, GB has the AA and the RAC. Later has a motorsport sub department. In short, Royal Automobile Club Motor Sports Association is abbreviated RAC MSA. The RAC MSA is governing body to all sorts remotely motorsport in UK, grassroots, autotests to club level rallying. The original RAC Rally was organised by the RAC since nearly 100 years. It is in fact the very event that turned the WRC event today. Just annual changes turned it slowly in the castrated result we have now. It is the Resolfen Rally, or RAC – Rally Around Cardiff today, in lengths and like 3 stages a day this should be easy, like a club rally, ut other demands on TV, marshalling, service parks, VIP hosting made the event so demanding, that no longer the RAC or the RAC MSA is responsible, but they had to start an organisation that does the whole year in full time jobs nothing else but organising this one rally! That is the IMS. The IRC version RAC Rally in return, which is a brand new event for this year, has a lot more freedom, is a lot easier and cheaper to run despite its less restrictions. While I am convinced this event will be just as enjoyale as the Wales Rally GB, if not even more, this event does not demand a group of people working 24-7 throughout the year on it. Even if this event was bigger than the WRC version, it would most likely still be easier and cheaper to run! Hence we don’t need an extra organisation, but the good old RAC MSA is running it themselves in their spare time and therefore the event can carry the RAC’s name, which is the traditional one!

Maybe sounds all confusing, but somehow an ironic showcase of how over-managed or ill-managed the WRC is. The IRC has built nice and memorable-identifiable corner stones for themselves. The season started with the best Monte in years, we had Safari over Easter and it ends in the only RAC there is! IRC and this RAC may not be the original, but the IRC has an RAC that can carry this name. The WRC Rally GB may be cancelled. There is also talk of moving areas. Maybe the WRC wants to move it to Scotland. The irony here is, the IRC wouldn’t car. In contrary, with S2000 too, it starts looking like the IRC is the original and the WRC is copying them. Next irony, the IRC and RAC could actually move the RAC Rally to Wales and they would not have a problem finding a sponsor, yet even without a sponsor the IRC’s “RAC Welsh Rally” would not so easily be suject to cancellation!

To be fair, I find it hard to directly blame the FIA for the Welsh Government switching their support the WRC to golf. Ut if you look at the IRC in comparison, you do see a case of ill management in the rotation system. I do see Max Mosley’s point of having 24 worthwhile locations in a calendar that can just take half of them and rotation is one solution, plus it surely is interesting to throw a new event at the teams every now and again. However if we end up drooping classic corner stones like Monte Carlo, Finland and RAC in favour of Cyprus, Jordan and Bulgaria, then no excuse is good enough! Besides these examples are neither a unique event, nor make any sense in marketing, disapponting 5-6 of the worthwhile locations is surely a smaller price than a WRC that
- lost its identity to Joe Public!
- Brings their traditional events in severe problems in their off season!

And this is what happened. See once again the IRCs mix of starting with Monte, Easter Safari, ending with RAC, in between we have events that are great for marketing, like Russia, and new events that really are a unique, different occasion, like Acores. Safari found a new home, San Remo found a new home, the RAC finale is a new event that is IRC’s own and you can’t tell me Joe Public do not tune Monte Carlo any more because it lost its WRC status. At this rate, it doesn’t take many more years and Joe Public understand the IRC as the top series, while in WRC you don’t see a structure, there are no-name amateur events, events that struggle in off season, and if on top of this they move WRC to a winter series without manufacturers, they have eventually done it!

And the off season problems, wheere they really that unpredictale. Leave the organisers organise their events as they want. Night stages for Monte and San Remo, back to classic locations. Maybe it is far fetched that the Wales Rally GB lost a sponsor, this is surely not what the FIA wanted to happen, but I don’t think it is far fetched to see why the sponsor left, not having a WRC event in 2010 as was promised to them by contract! Also see the Rally Finland story. They wanted to build a new superspecial arena. I don’t need superspecials, but the reason this project was cancelled was because the investment would have been stupid if the venue is only used once every 24 months!

This is basically the same as bringbackrealrallying said aove. We don’t maybe need to go back to silly rallies taking a whole week with different hotels every night 3000kms apart. But we have killed the WRC in changing the events too extreme. If we changed the events to the same extreme as we did in the last 10 years, we would build a perfect copy of the Cardiff indoor superspecial in Nairobi and the only reason why the rally fan realises this is the Safari Rally and teams have travelled outside of Cardiff is trying to elieve what the TV commentator tells us! And just to show how much trust I lost in the WRC management, I would actually not believe if it came to that extreme, the organisers would e that clever for udget saving to actually do 16 rounds all in Cardiff, just change the backstage sponsor banners and hang posters over the media office windows displaying Nairobi or Monaco!

“In his book "Rally" Reinhard Klein says "they may have got rid of the tarmac stages around Sintra but Portugal without Arganil would be unthinkable".

- RAC without Kielder, Lake District, Sweet Lamb
- Safari without Rift Valley, Tanzania side of Kilimanjaro black cotton roads, Taita Hills grass
- NZ without vulcanic Rotorua area and Motu stage
- Argentina without Andens
- Monte without Night of the Long Knifes
- Rally Italy without Ligurian Alps, or silly enogh without mainland Italy
- In return 100points for anyone to name a recognizable area of Jordan, Turkey, Bulgaria....

I could carry on....

 Re: WRC Teams and Drivers 2009 by AndyRAC

20-Apr-09 04:02 AM 

As I was in Kielder for the Pirelli Rally - it got me thinking, sorry :

A spectator day with stages round the country - with literally thousands turning out to watch.(You can't buy publicity like that)
Dedicated TV coverage on a major channel with even a live stage thrown in.
Regular updates on National Radio, and decent Newspaper coverage.

Now consider, all that has gone! How can any event/sport succeed when everything that was going for it has been thrown away. The people in charge of the WRC need shooting. How on earth has it been allowed to happen? It's almost unbelievable, and we wonder why it's on it's knees.......

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