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 elecric motors in rally cars by m4d-mike

10-Apr-09 10:20 AM 

now we have a cae of citroen using a electric motor to boost the torque output of the car, I could see it coming ut i didnt think anyone would actually try to use it how are the fia ever gonna manage to regulate for this one.

they cant even decide on what cars to use next year



 Re: elecric motors in rally cars by Chris B

10-Apr-09 12:24 AM 

Citroen played with this since a few months and apparently that was the last drive of this car. I personally am very reserved about this hybrid stuff. German journalists like to praise them, but the figures they display in economy as well as performance doesn't reach that of the better modern diesels. Not surprisingly considering the weight.

Or whatever way to look at, PSA always had hybrid rally cars - it is the Fords wheere the wiper and windscreen heater electric motors keep stopping.

Fascinating question on how the FIA will handle this one. Though for the reasons mentioned briefly, after first fears I came to believe this hybrid stuff is just a short fashion trend.



 Re: elecric motors in rally cars by RonSkoda

10-Apr-09 01:32 PM 

Full story on the latest C4 Hybrid test

httpwww.rallye-info.comarticle.aspsid0stid7845

I am a petrol head and hope cars dont go all electric one day. I would rather see the continued push for more economic engines continue, with second generation biofuels coming on stream more. Technology like this in the C4 could be included - the batteries are not charged by plugging the mains but recouping some of the energy lost under braking.



 Re: elecric motors in rally cars by RonSkoda

10-Apr-09 01:36 PM 

Working link:

http://www.rallye-info.com/article.asp?sid=0&stid=7845



 Re: elecric motors in rally cars by m4d-mike

11-Apr-09 02:05 PM 

the idea is stupid the batteries in the prius cause more pollution during thier manufacture than a v8 range rover and mileage wise are beaten by an m3 ref top gear. silly stupid piece of shit.

sorry but i dcannot see electrics replacing petrol engine specially as my cr runs almost 0 emmissions and 120mpg.

there is no environmental benefiets whatso ever
sorry im done now.



 Re: elecric motors in rally cars by Chris B

11-Apr-09 03:03 PM 

Haha, I thought this environmental talk sends rally fans more mental than environ....

OK having contacts to the industry and being open to new technologies, I may have the one or the other interesting thought.

I also as a motorsport and fast car die hard fan do not want to come across as ignorant and unresponsible. Right in contrary, even if Green Party people dont see it the same way, about the biggest fascination in rallying over all other motorsports for me is that it is run in nature, that you see the landscapes. I believe I can honestly and with good consciousness claim I am no ignorant to environmental issues.

Now comes the brave part - I believe in environmental issues I am no further off the mark than some of the fanatics and what the media try to tell us. Examples I experienced or witnessed.

1 - This sets me off with the electro Smarts run in London and Berlin. The media and politicians tell us these cars are the future, they run totally emission free.

This to my mind is one of many plots in self defence and for propaganda for politicians. Like the German politicians telling us the huge fuel and electricity prices are solely down to the according industry, but they somehow forget to mention that in this country over half of the gross price goes to Berlin, while we even pay tax on tax. The same way they are lying when making the general public believe these cars are emission free.

Im my job I am very remotely having to do with an electricity supplier. I have seen 100 percent definite calculations that to fill a Berlin or London electro Smart with power to travel 100km, to produce this power with coal we produce 175mg CO2. Renewable energies have their flaws, the only other reliable power source for the Smart would be nuclear, which the Greens fight tooth and nail.

This means, while the car itself does not pollute the air, seeing it in the bigger and more realistic picture this electro Smart actually pollutes the air near twice as much as a conventional one!!!!

I have not produced its battery yet in this calculation and I have not yet started talking of efficiency. This car is pathetically slow, which for town driving is fast enough and probably is still an improvement on the jerky normal Smart, and it needs a big engine diesel towing truck after 100km.

2 - This leads me to the fact that - once again other than politicians and media tell us - the Berlin and London electric Smart is not actually a brand new invention.

If you believe this electro Smart is such a brilliant idea and you want to save some money, it now took me 10 seconds to find this one.

httpsuchen.mobile.defahrzeugesearch.htmlisSearchRequesteditSearchscopeIdClangdeexportNO_EXPORTsortOption.sortOrderASCENDINGdamageUnrepairedNO_DAMAGE_UNREPAIREDsortOption.sortByprice.consumerGrossEuromakeModelVariant1.makeId19300makeModelVariant1.modelIdmaxPriceminFirstRegistrationDatemaxMileagefuelELECTRICITYambitCountryzipcode

I guess the link doesnt work. It is www.mobile.de , type in Peugeot and as fuel elektrik. So go and buy yourself a 15 years old electric Peugeot 106! The French post and French Gas EDF GDF used them. Why Peugeot never made a big fuzz about this. Because after 15 years they are still so flipping inefficient.

3 - If you dont accept Peugeot as an example, it was also something like 15 years ago that Stig Blomqvist won the Rallye Monte Carlo for alternative fuels in an electroc Ford Escort!

BTW this event has just 2 weeks ago had its 2009 edition. So nope, the Smart is not all that new. And why the Monte Carlo for alternative fuels is not talked about since 25 years one can only wonder. Is that really so brilliant that it is our future.

4 - And I can go back even longer. Since when is it that in UK milk is delivered to your door by electric karts. Here, or for the postman I actually see sense in electric vehicles, but why the London and Berlin Smart should be better for its purpose than the dozens of identical and failed projects tried before is totally beyond me!

5 - Maybe we indeed should forget about the Smart and look at real new solutions. Then I discover that the Toyota Prius as a hybrid is not all that new. Over 10 years of development and they still have not managed this hybrid car to cause less pollution and less fuel consumption than a Toyota Aygo diesel!

6 - Even if except Toyota the hybrid stuff only gains momentum now, last summer I had a very weird experience. I just returned a holiday for which I borrowed a Peugeot 308 diesel. I must admit I was amazed by this car only needing 5.5 litres per 100km, which I dont know how much this is in miles to the gallon.

Just returned I saw a test and big news fuzz in German TV about Hondas new Hybrid car. It was based on the Civic and used "only" 6 litres. They were all up in arms about how this is excellent and how this is our future.

To compare. The 308 in question was a 7-seater estate, two sizes up on the Civic, twice as many seats, probably triple the BHP as I had the 140BHP version, in the holiday I had a mix with plenty of town driving, but also topping 200kmh on the German Autobahn. It was not permanent crazy speeds, but after the 400km motorway trip up to the location the board computer told 5.8 litres per 100km and an average speed of around 110kmh! The fact that the clock also showed 1100km when I first filled her up seem to prove the computer right!

I may never have been a fan of the hybrid idea, but a hybrid car being 2 sizes smaller and certainly driven slower than my diesel still needing more fuel, wow this hybrid stuff is worse than even I thought!

7 - as the final point, talking with my Peugeot mates about this point just above, I was informed that a hybrid would never work for me anyway! The simple problem is the weight of the batteries for a hybrid. And I live is 2km outside the town relatively steep up a hill. This leaves 3 daily driving situations for me.

A- up the hill the electro motor is not strong enough and the hybrid switches to petrol or diesel. So I use the same fule as I do with a conventional car, but this fuel now has to carry 200kgs of hybrid batteries as well, so I actually use more fuel and CO2!

B- down the hill, what difference does it make if I let the car roll with a combustion engine or if I let it roll with electro!

C- in town commuting I might actually be better off with electro. However even this is doubtful, as most of the time I am sitting in a traffic jam in which modern engines switch off and so again I hardly need any energy at all.

Ergo the only noticeable difference a hybrid would do for me is situation A, wheere it needs more, a lot more! Since the advantages of a hybrid in this case are not actually advantaes, I am not ready to live with the compromises, having to carry more weight when left foot brake drifting round the b-category roads!

This is 7 negative examples that in my life have been proven. So for nobody managed to prove a positive example. Maybe there are positive examples, but for all the observations above, I am not convinced electro or hybrid is our efficient future. All politicians do in telling us otherwise is to actually slow down development. Because even if there is more to come hybrid and electro, the latest trends of modern diesel and down sized charged petrol engines has shown that with modern engineering there is a lot still to come the conventional and proven technology. And if electro after 100 years and hybrid after 15 years cant beat conventional engines, with all the new potential in conventional engines, I am quite confident conventional engines will stay the best forever, if only the politics allow engineering on them carried on with the same force.

Rant over.



 Re: elecric motors in rally cars by Chris B

11-Apr-09 03:05 PM 

Wow, this is totally impossible to read! Let me post it again without that link!



Haha, I thought this environmental talk sends rally fans more mental than environ....

OK; having contacts to the industry and being open to new technologies, I may have the one or the other interesting thought.

I also as a motorsport and fast car die hard fan do not want to come across as ignorant and unresponsible. Right in contrary, even if Green Party people don't see it the same way, about the biggest fascination in rallying over all other motorsports for me is that it is run in nature, that you see the landscapes. I believe I can honestly and with good consciousness claim I am no ignorant to environmental issues.

Now comes the brave part - I believe in environmental issues I am no further off the mark than some of the fanatics and what the media try to tell us. Examples I experienced or witnessed.

1 - This sets me off with the electro Smarts run in London and Berlin. The media and politicians tell us these cars are the future, they run totally emission free.

This to my mind is one of many plots in self defence and for propaganda for politicians. Like the German politicians telling us the huge fuel and electricity prices are solely down to the according industry, but they somehow forget to mention that in this country over half of the gross price goes to Berlin, while we even pay tax on tax. The same way they are lying when making the general public believe these cars are emission free.

Im my job I am very remotely having to do with an electricity supplier. I have seen 100 percent definite calculations that to fill a Berlin or London electro Smart with power to travel 100km, to produce this power with coal we produce 175mg CO2. Renewable energies have their flaws, the only other reliable power source for the Smart would be nuclear, which the Greens fight tooth and nail.

This means, while the car itself does not pollute the air, seeing it in the bigger and more realistic picture this electro Smart actually pollutes the air near twice as much as a conventional one!!!!

I have not produced its battery yet in this calculation and I have not yet started talking of efficiency. This car is pathetically slow, which for town driving is fast enough and probably is still an improvement on the jerky normal Smart, and it needs a big engine diesel towing truck after 100km.

2 - This leads me to the fact that - once again other than politicians and media tell us - the Berlin and London electric Smart is not actually a brand new invention.

If you believe this electro Smart is such a brilliant idea and you want to save some money, it now took me 10 seconds to find this one.



I guess the link doesn't work. It is www.mobile.de , type in Peugeot and as fuel elektrik. So go and buy yourself a 15 years old electric Peugeot 106! The French post and French Gas EDF GDF used them. Why Peugeot never made a big fuzz about this. Because after 15 years they are still so flipping inefficient.

3 - If you don't accept Peugeot as an example, it was also something like 15 years ago that Stig Blomqvist won the Rallye Monte Carlo for alternative fuels in an electroc Ford Escort!

BTW this event has just 2 weeks ago had its 2009 edition. So nope, the Smart is not all that new. And why the Monte Carlo for alternative fuels is not talked about since 25 years one can only wonder. Is that really so brilliant that it is our future.

4 - And I can go back even longer. Since when is it that in UK milk is delivered to your door by electric karts. Here, or for the postman I actually see sense in electric vehicles, but why the London and Berlin Smart should be better for its purpose than the dozens of identical and failed projects tried before is totally beyond me!

5 - Maybe we indeed should forget about the Smart and look at real new solutions. Then I discover that the Toyota Prius as a hybrid is not all that new. Over 10 years of development and they still have not managed this hybrid car to cause less pollution and less fuel consumption than a Toyota Aygo diesel!

6 - Even if except Toyota the hybrid stuff only gains momentum now, last summer I had a very weird experience. I just returned from a holiday for which I borrowed a Peugeot 308 diesel. I must admit I was amazed by this car only needing 5.5 litres per 100km, which I don't know how much this is in miles to the gallon.

Just returned I saw a test and big news fuzz in German TV about Hondas new Hybrid car. It was based on the Civic and used "only" 6 litres. They were all up in arms about how this is excellent and how this is our future.

To compare. The 308 in question was a 7-seater estate, two sizes up on the Civic, twice as many seats, probably triple the BHP as I had the 140BHP version, in the holiday I had a mix with plenty of town driving, but also topping 200km/h on the German Autobahn. It was not permanent crazy speeds, but after the 400km motorway trip up to the location the board computer told 5.8 litres per 100km and an average speed of around 110kmh! The fact that the clock also showed 1100km when I first filled her up seem to prove the computer right!

I may never have been a fan of the hybrid idea, but a hybrid car being 2 sizes smaller and certainly driven slower than my diesel still needing more fuel, wow this hybrid stuff is worse than even I thought!

7 - as the final point, talking with my Peugeot mates about this point just above, I was informed that a hybrid would never work for me anyway! The simple problem is the weight of the batteries for a hybrid. And where I live is 2km outside the town relatively steep up a hill. This leaves 3 daily driving situations for me.

A- up the hill the electro motor is not strong enough and the hybrid switches to petrol or diesel. So I use the same fule as I do with a conventional car, but this fuel now has to carry 200kgs of hybrid batteries as well, so I actually use more fuel and CO2!

B- down the hill, what difference does it make if I let the car roll with a combustion engine or if I let it roll with electro!

C- in town commuting I might actually be better off with electro. However even this is doubtful, as most of the time I am sitting in a traffic jam in which modern engines switch off and so again I hardly need any energy at all.

Ergo the only noticeable difference a hybrid would do for me is situation A, wheere it needs more, a lot more! Since the advantages of a hybrid in this case are not actually advantaes, I am not ready to live with the compromises, having to carry more weight when left foot brake drifting round the b-category roads!

This is 7 negative examples that in my life have been proven. So for nobody managed to prove a positive example. Maybe there are positive examples, but for all the observations above, I am not convinced electro or hybrid is our efficient future. All politicians do in telling us otherwise is to actually slow down development. Because even if there is more to come from hybrid and electro, the latest trends of modern diesel and down sized charged petrol engines has shown that with modern engineering there is a lot still to come from the conventional and proven technology. And if electro after 100 years and hybrid after 15 years can't beat conventional engines, with all the new potential in conventional engines, I am quite confident conventional engines will stay the best forever, if only the politics allow engineering on them carried on with the same force.

Rant over.



 Re: elecric motors in rally cars by Chris B

11-Apr-09 03:42 PM 

Maybe cumulated waffle on froom my previous post....

One point I made not quite clear is example 1 with the electro Smarts in Berlin and London.

While this car itself has no exhaust, you should not forget that all that has been done from an environmental view point is to relocate the exhaust! A Smart diesel emits 100mg CO2 per 100km, a Smart Electro emits 175mg per 100km! This Smart is a lot less efficient than its conventional sister, yet causes near twice the pollution!

Because in telling us how clean electro cars are, the politicians have good talking. You should never forget one majorly important question - wheere is the power of this car coming from! Even if it is electricity, it still has to be produced!

This leaves the only acceptable solution to be a car that produces its own power and never needs a plug in station. This is a combustion engine, or indeed a hybrid one. The hybrid technology, not only its batteries, add massive weight!!!!

Leaves the question, if so many people tried alternatives before, electro, gas, wood burning carburators, steam, why has none of these technologies succeeded petrol and diesel in over a 100 years. Don't you think there is a reason, or do you think petrol-diesel is really that hopeless.



 Re: elecric motors in rally cars by m4d-mike

11-Apr-09 11:52 PM 

its a political flavour of the month ladies and gentlemen. the cars have to bee seen as an alternative but cannot atualy reduce the amount of oil used because they would need to make money from us another way and oil is just too easy. In ireland 8.5 euro of evey tenner spent on petrol goes to tax fact.
im all for reducing emmissions and the like but for gods sake leave our bloody sport alone.

here is an idea how about the cars have to do 20 mpg over all cos surrently they manage something like 6, that might help with the cost cutting too and would surely rule out the 600 ftlbs of torque monsters we have at the moment.
it would also mean a return to the gpA power days when the fastest way forward was sideways.
just a thought




 Re: elecric motors in rally cars by onthelimit

12-Apr-09 05:05 AM 

If this is going to happen, it will probably mean the end of my attendance in the stages because I don't want to watch rally cars that don't make noise. Idiots of marketing you are destroying what we love for promoting your idiotic environmental sensibilities.



 Re: elecric motors in rally cars by Ron@Work

13-Apr-09 04:53 AM 

"here is an idea how about the cars have to do 20 mpg over all cos surrently they manage something like 6, that might help with the cost cutting too and would surely rule out the 600 ftlbs of torque monsters we have at the moment."

The coming S2000 cars actually use a lot less fuel than a WRCar as far as I know (of course they go slower too) although I doubt it is as good as 20mpg. Turbo engines can offer excellent economy when in mildly tuned road engines but do start to drink it when you crank up the power.



 Re: elecric motors in rally cars by Chris B

13-Apr-09 05:00 AM 

Turbos are generally far more efficient. An S2000 car is nowheere near the 600NM torque, in contrary one of my gripe at them is that a state of the art S2000 car has less torque than my road car! However I don't think an S2000 needs much less fuel than a WRCar! I don't think it will need more, but the higher revs and more gear changes don't help it either.