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 what was the most entertaining car ever by m4d-mike

17-Apr-09 08:46 AM 

never mind results or power, the best one to watch. i know already this is gonna be full of escorts but
I prefer the saphire cosworth.
a stonkin big hulk of a thing gettin thrown around like that really good to see even now, seein it being thrown around a corner like a fiesta, fantastic!!!



 Re: what was the most entertaining car ever by Chris B

17-Apr-09 10:13 AM 

You ask "most entertaining car" or "most entertaining RALLY car"

If the 405 T16 Pikes Peak version is disqualified for Pikes Peak is not a rally, then for me without a doubt the Audi Quattro! Just difficult to say which version. Most beautiful would have been the long one once it grew wings, the A2 version. The last S1 was a bit too silly with the wings, but the more advanced it got, the more brutal the sound experience - real fire breathing monster!

N°2 would then be the groupA Escort Cosworth or RWD Sierra Cosworth. Beyond them I would have to start thinking....

For sideways action maybe Escort Mk2 and Sunbeam Lotus were best, but I like the idea of RWD combined with big turbo torque and that would be Sierra Cosworth and maybe Mitsubishi Lancer Turbo or Starion. In the looks department strangely I don't like the Sapphire at all, while I personally found the Sierra Cosworth drop dead gorgeous, even though Sapphire was just a facelift, or maybe because Sapphire was a 4-door saloon. The Escort Cosworth also was nice looking and I remember it for some reason again the more advanced they got, the Escort Cosy was actually louder than the Sierra Cosy, or am I wrong. Therefore for my N°2 I can't decide, louder Escort or RWD Sierra.

Anyway, sound.... In the 1990s I regularly had shivers down my spine just standing next to a sidepipe Cosy at idle, imagine the sensation in anger! And the Quattro was even better!

It is therefore that I don't understand why so many fans and even organisers and journalists claim the S2000 cars sound good. The other day I read a magazin in which two journalists tried to tell the pro and cons of WRC vs IRC, one journalist tried to talk pro WRC, the other pro IRC. Both said the sound was a plus for IRC. Heh. The one writing pro WRC, the one and only point I would have agreed with him would have een the sound! But he gave this point to IRC, so I ended disagreeing with this journalist exactly 100 percent! Granted the modern WRCars sound boring, but at least they don't sound strangulated!!!!

What is wrong with those people. If we want rallying to return to a show that the customers of the media want to see, we need two things. 1- rallies that are a recognisable and unique challenge and 2- identifiable cars that act and SOUND like monsters! However in this noise is not everything. What good is it to have noise if there is no volume behind it and it is strangulated rather than a fire breathing monster. If that is what FIA and journalists believe, then we can take a boyracers 60BHP Fiesta with a broken exhaust and it will sound better than a WRCar just because it is louder!

Hmm, got carried away again, but that's for me an important point about most entertaining rally cars.



 Re: what was the most entertaining car ever by bringbackrealrallying

17-Apr-09 11:26 AM 

Without a question the Audi Sport Quattro E2 was the most entertaining rally car ever. It was just mad, so loud, but not loud like other cars, its engine had a different almost sort of wild sound. Watching that go passed was an event in itself.

Other than that in my mind there were 4 car/driver combinations that were the most entertaining. Vatanen/Escort Mk2, Salonen/205 T16, McRae/Imprezza 555 and Toivonen/Sunbeam Lotus. And maybe an honourable mention for Blomqvist/Quattro A2.



 Re: what was the most entertaining car ever by Chris B

17-Apr-09 09:02 PM 

Not wanting to hijack this thread, but it has a really exciting subject with lots of colours potentially added.


It is indeed interesting how drivers could make cars and cars could make drivers in the days of vastly different concepts. Mikkola, always a gentleman, I am ever again amased at old pictures how sideways he was in the Escorts! In them cars he was as sideways as Vatanen. Maybe the reason why we remember Vatanen more as the wild Escort tamer is his many controversial crashes and this super classic Rothmans colour scheme in the version that only started in 1980. I was always a Vatanen as well as Peugeot fan, yet in the 205 T16 for some strange reason I seem to remember Salonen as the more entertaining driver. Vatanen was a dominator in the early 205 T16 days, which was another memory to behold. But Salonen was full of contradictions. Salonen joined the team with a previous record that had you wonder if Todt had gone completely gaga signing him. Beyond his CV Salonen was a beer ballied chain smoker with double glasing glasses. But first time trying the car he scared the hell out the engineers – Salonen seemingly all bored searched and lit his cigarette, driving one handed with his eyes half off the road all at once while sideways in 5th gear with the wheels off the groundd! Salonen had absolutely no understanding why his team mates went to the gym, while he himself was caught lighting cigarettes on special stages in flat out competition! With this ignorant attitude in the 205 he won 5 rallies in a row in 1985, a record that stood for 20 years until super Loeb came!

I mean these groupB cars, there were only a handful of people who could master them, but Salonen made it look like peanuts! Mind you, there was a story of Vatanen navigator in the 205 T16 days Terry Harryman spending a night in a disco mid event, in this was the days when the legs lasted 5am till 11pm! But here we are entering another suject, the lack of driver characters in modern media designer WRC. I was often travelling with the Peugeot Germany team in the groupB days. Kalle Grundel in 1985 was the far more successful driver, but in 1986 the pairing Michèle Mouton – Terry Harryman delievered different material to be loved by public and media. It was always a sight to behold just how different to extremes these characters were. The team mechanics feared Michèle, because when she was in attack mode, she couldn’t switch off and she was often kicking mechanics out of the way in a rough manner and working on the car herself at service. Meanwhile Terry was standing in the motorhome with a cigarre and a whiskey and making loud jokes about Michèle that she could not be cool and relax, which only caused the vulcano to errupt even more! Even the team director gave up on his kindergarden, scenes like the chief mechanic running to the motorhome “Boss, I can’t do my job, Michèle threatened me with a wheel cross” – “Oh no, not again, if she wants to do it, let her!” At the end of the event we then would all somehow sit at the bar like a family full of harmony. As the evening progressed Michèle would miraculously turn the most charming lady you could imagine, while now we were losing control of Terry!


The Quattro S1-E2 “but not loud like other cars, its engine had a different almost sort of wild sound.” Maybe because it was a 5-cylinder. The engine itself was not actually that loud, but of the Quattro you could not speak of noise, it was a symphony! And then all that chirping and whistling and banging and flames added to make a whole orchestra that was just so wild, even if you are technically interested and understood what creeated the noises and why, you just could not keep up what this car was doing, a real monster to be tamed!

And indeed, the only 4-cylinder atmos I could name that to me sounded half nice were 306 Maxi, Escort BDA, maybe Sunbeam Lotus, but that’s it. And here it is the revs combined with a trumpeting sound with volume, nothing strangulated. I mean I have heard Simca Rallyes – I am talking of a 1300cc rear engined shoe box – that sound beefier than todays S2000 cars! Maybe it is the young fans that haven’t heard anything else, who like the S2000 sound, but journalists.questionmark. Go to a historic event or through your old memory and tell me what was the most enteraining and brutal sounding atmospheric rally car and I bet – despite most such rally cars having been 4-pots – I am not alone coming up with a range of boxers, V6s and V8s first! And even here a nice proof that louder is not everything. I am a personal fan of the Peugeot 504 Coupé V6, which could be pretty loud, but I am not sure if its main oposition Mercedes 450SLC did not actually sound better - or remember i.e. TR7 V8, them V8s were never as loud as say a Stratos or 6R4, but they were certainly very spectacular!


On the Quattro S1-E2 there is curiosity to its name that even I am not sure I can finally settle it. Because so many people – including two of the most respected rally car enthusiast journalists there ever were, Martin Holmes and Reinhard Klein – claim the monster Quattro was the E2. Reinhard at one point even claimed S1 was the name of the 1st short Sport Quattro, which is certainly wrong! It is unsettling for me that so many insiders claim the same. While Reinhard in his “Rally Cars” book –and not only him- claimed that noody knows wheere the S1 name came . Well, I found out in my database research! Aqccording to Audis own FIA homologation certificates the last gB Quattro was called “Model – Sport Quattro, Variation – S1”! The S1 term never apeared anywheere until this evo version and in this evo version was no talk of E2, it was variation S1! The mystery however not helped since you cant complain too loudly aout these journalists. By the homologation papers the car called S1 was a development based on the previous short Sport Quattro, such technically calling it in more modern or more common terms the “2nd evolution” is not actually wrong. But according to the homologation papers its name tag was S1, NOT E2.

I wrote this quite some time ago in the variation sheet of this car in our database. Sadly the variation sheets are not switched live yet, so online you can only access manufacturer Audi – model Sport Quattro groupB, but you cant go yet its sub evo versions yet, which are Sport Quattro and Sport Quattro S1. If I linked it here, the link would not display in this forum, so try to search the Sport Quattro general model story online yourself. The story to the S1 evo variation I copy here for now –

“pConfusing names Well, would you have referred to the famous, winged Monster-Quattro if you saw the name "Audi Quattro E2" Indeed many sources say Sport Quattro E2 was its official name in reference to this being the Evo2 version of the short "Sport Quattro". Nobody seems to know the "S1" name came . However I got hold of the homologation documents of this car and here it is named the Sport Quattro S1, indicating a number of highly respected journalists even got this one wrong! Other than many sources claim, the original homologation documents dont show the "E2" tag and the name "S1" appears first on the original papers in the homologation of 1st July 1985.

pAudi themselves and the homologation papers also claimed the winged S1 had exactly 476BHP. This may have been at time of homologation, first tests and its debut event Argentina 1985. However Audi never denied rumours that depending on event and according preparation, or just by playing with the boost, power varied to up to 550BHP.

pOn a more analytical point of view, it basically was a Sport Quattro growing massive wings to address the nervous handling of the car. As well radiators, batteries, everything possible has been moved the front to the boot to help giving this car a far better balance than the otherwise so front heavy Quattros ever had. In this Audi applied a classic trick of "how to read regulations" There were certain limits how big a rear spoiler could be. Inside the rear spoiler on the Audi Quattro S1 however was Audi placed the radiators. So the FIA rear spoiler limitations didnt apply any longer since Audi decclared cleverly "Its not a spoiler, its a cooling device!"”


The last chapter of this story comes welcome here as it is a nice case of how the best WRC engineers think. If you thought the Quattro S1 or E2 had igger wings than any other gB car, it is because they found a loop hole in the rules. And Kit Car regs as in S2000 are full of loop holes! The whole point of kit cars as S2000 is that you can add stuff that is not found on any road version, such as 4x4, which demands massive changes to the shell, floor pan, axle geometrie and mountings, etc. If you are a good rally engineer, everything that is not specifically foridding is automatically alowed, so for Christian Loriaux and gang S2000 is the next WRCar like go wild paradise. What we need therefore is a road car related rule book that states “What is not specifically alowed is automatically forbidden!” What is so difficult aout this aproach. Ford should base their rally car on the Focus ST made in according mass sales numbers and if this car can not be sold to the public with a trick suspension, tough! In the current WRCars we had active suspension banned for a week and Ford came out with their current trick suspension and quick gearshift and we end with a car that for 700,000Euros is dead boring!

On the events and Reinhard Klein comments I reply to your fitting post in the “WRC teams and drivers 2009” thread – err, how do we manage to get that much off suject so quickly Sorry, but I do hope the discussions and also my long contributions are entertaining....





 Re: what was the most entertaining car ever by Chris B

17-Apr-09 09:35 PM 

Sorry, beyond this forum swallowing words, I have a sticky B on my keybord.

Here an example of the S1 sound orchestra.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hEK7POxpVeE

Curiosly one of my fav moments in this video is the scene car N°6 Finland at 2m12. Nothing too spectacular, just Hannu keeps pumping the throttle 4-5-6 times with the only result him running innto the rev limiter 4-5-6 times! This still pretty simple scene gives the onlooker the feel that the driver is really struggling to tame the power of this monster.

Well, and that is the show I feel we have to return too, never mind how drastic measures this involves!

Of course it would be unwise going back to 600BHP groupB plastic cars, but is there really no way getting there again.
- we either need less efficient 4x4 systems, or if that is not possible, then get rid of 4x4!
- alternatively raise the torque and or power.

I understand why people want to stick to 4x4 and maybe any compromise of the two points above may work. But one thing is for sure to my mind:

WE NEED MORE POWER THAN GRIP!!!!

- and S2000 is the opposite of that!



 Re: what was the most entertaining car ever by bringbackrealrallying

18-Apr-09 04:16 AM 

The best sounding rally car ever is definitly the Metro 6R4, that does funny things to my underpants.



 Re: what was the most entertaining car ever by moogy

18-Apr-09 03:56 PM 

mk 2 escort, rear wheel slide. i can still watch them competeing today and so still entertaining for 25 years and untill there aint any left.



 Re: what was the most entertaining car ever by oweh

22-Apr-09 11:00 AM 

Speaking of entertaining driver/car combinations Bosse/307 does come to mind, altough the entertainment was not the driving but Marcus' reaction to it.

As to driving, the 306 Maxi at the hands of Ragnotti was certainly entertaining.

Generally speaking I would agree that the quattro is the most entertaining car. The ingredients are as said:
-horrid weight distribution, barely held at bay by awd.
-monster engine combining huge power, massive turbo lag, wierd cylinder count and the best trumpeting sound ever.
Both poits mean that the Quattro was quite a handful to drive.



 Re: what was the most entertaining car ever by Gregor

22-Apr-09 11:51 AM 

From my own interest in rally which isn't so long, I'd have to say my favorite sound is a tie between the Audi 5 cylinder, BMW M3, and Subaru, though what little I've heard of the Maxi isn't bad, either.