FIA to replace Group N4 with R4

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FIA to replace Group N4 with R4

Postby rv65 » 13 Jul 2010 04:53

The bozo's at the FIA want to ban GroupN4 err rename it to R4. The R4 cars are rumored to have a 34mm restrictor, sequential gearbox, body work must not be altered in any way shape or form, wheels must be able to be bought from the showroom etc. This class probably has some R car improvements, but the FIA probably made Group N4 err R4 even more expensive to compete in. They are still cheaper than S2000, and I doubt that PSA and Ford would make a R4 car. If PSA made an R4 car, it would probably be very popular and very competitive. With these new regs, this could very well continue the Mitsubishi-Subaru duopoly for Group N4. Tommi will probably be building one of these cars even with his financial status. If they get rid of some of the N4 rules, it might just enable PSA to build an R4 cars and continue their domination from there. These new regulations will go into effect in 2011. Not sure if people can convert their existing N4's to R4, or they have to buy new cars. They might as well keep the traditional N4's for the national championship, and those who desire an R4 will get it. Of course some of this information is from Wikipedia, but it could very well be true.
Last edited by rv65 on 13 Jul 2010 04:57, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: FIA to replace Group N4 with R4

Postby rv65 » 13 Jul 2010 04:57

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Group_N

Sounds like the driven wheels from the showroom. Sometimes I make a mistake from trying to analyze what Wikipedia is saying.
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Re: FIA to replace Group N4 with R4

Postby M4dmike » 13 Jul 2010 10:03

When ford drop's due to pathetic results. I think that this formula would be perfect for a top level wrc class. Cars competing on the merits of the car itself not the ability of some tuner to hack it into a formula 1 style rally car.
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Re: FIA to replace Group N4 with R4

Postby rv65 » 15 Jul 2010 16:45

R4 is definitely in development and should come out next year, though not sure who will be participating. So far, things are going in a positive direction, and it's probably been in development for a while. So far, it's probably going to happen.
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Re: FIA to replace Group N4 with R4

Postby rv65 » 15 Jul 2010 20:49

I hope R4 is regulated quite well, as there could be loopholes in the regulations that could allow Citroen and Ford to build a car thats better than the competition. R4 should be the top class in the WRC. I hope Jean Todt bans S1600 ASAP, and use R cars. The current S2000/1600T regulations were from Max Mosley and not Todt. R4 could very well be a Todt spec as Mosley probably had little if any involvement. This spec has been in development since January of this year. A few manufacturers are interested, but they won't reveal until they officially announce it.
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Re: FIA to replace Group N4 with R4

Postby rv65 » 23 Jul 2010 10:28

With ChrisB's logic, 2 N-GT's will be cheaper than a R4. The R4 could just be a Group N4 car with minor mods such as plastic side and rear windows, possible sequential gearbox since all R cars have them, no rear seatbelt brackets, and additional work done in the trunk or boot. Most of these mods are quite cheap, but it's still making it available to those only with money. This could very well be a Subaru championship, unless the Evo IX, and X get the r4 goodies :). Ralliart is gone, but other tuners could technically replace them.
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Re: FIA to replace Group N4 with R4

Postby ChrisB » 24 Jul 2010 10:14

RalliArt Italy is still going and have recently employed our forum member imperatore from RGRS. Other Mitsubishi tuners exist too. So I think the according R4 mods for Lancer EvoX are possible.

That an N-GT Porsche is cheaper than an N4 Lancer or Impreza van is not just a logic, but a fact people like Dobberkau in Germany, Duez in Belgium and Delecour in France have stated several times.
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Re: FIA to replace Group N4 with R4

Postby rv65 » 24 Jul 2010 22:13

I would like to see an EVO IX R4 which would even be better than the Evo X.
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Re: FIA to replace Group N4 with R4

Postby rv65 » 25 Jul 2010 03:04

Tommi Makinen said that if he doesn't get a new project soon, then his team will go out of business.
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Re: FIA to replace Group N4 with R4

Postby rv65 » 25 Jul 2010 03:05

Maybe the R4 spec could help Tommi survive for a little bit.
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Re: FIA to replace Group N4 with R4

Postby Gregor » 26 Jul 2010 13:44

ChrisB wrote:That an N-GT Porsche is cheaper than an N4 Lancer or Impreza van is not just a logic, but a fact people like Dobberkau in Germany, Duez in Belgium and Delecour in France have stated several times.

I would guess a lot of the extra cost comes from an N4 car having to spend time off pavement. Could someone build up an N-GT Imrpeza or Evo using less expensive parts than N4 homologation requires?
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Re: FIA to replace Group N4 with R4

Postby rv65 » 01 Aug 2010 21:37

It sounds like R4 will be a Mitsubishi/Subaru duopoly, unless they can equalization kit for companies that don't have an N4 car, to build an R4 car. An equalization kit would allow for more manufacturers that despise groupN, but think expensive S2000 based kit cars are the best. I've still heard of rumors of the FIA killing off the S2000 based cars, but I doubt it. Ford, Citroen, and Mini will fight off any regulation to ban the existing car. Jean Todt has been regarded as Mosley 2.0, but maybe he does have different ideas including a proposed ban of 4WD, but that could spell too much torque steer. Then again, high torque and FWD = bad. If the FIA bans 4WD and allow 2WD, it won't stop teams from developing torque vectoring diffs to help combat the torque steer. Even 2WD rally cars can be extremely expensive, if you allow for kit car rules. R4 will probably be announced in the next World Council meeting in September, and it seems to be going well, but I don't know why the FIA is creating the R4 class.

BTW, the IRC will continue to use standard S2000's next year. I think the IRC will go 1.6T in 2012, not next year.
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Re: FIA to replace Group N4 with R4

Postby Sulland » 03 Aug 2010 19:41

If not FIA is planning to make R4 as the top class for any series, national or international and that WRC is the only series to be allowed to use WRCars with 1600T top spec.
R4 could be a lower spec 1600T and that the current 250 ish S2000 cars can be converted with a 250 hp 1600T engine. But that R4 also can use a GrN platform and not only S2000 platforms as for the new WRCars.

It would be stupid of FIA not to think of a future plan to use all the S2000 cars of today also in the future. Thay can not just loose 5-6 manufacturers of top spec rallycars, by just letting S2000 die a silent death !
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Re: FIA to replace Group N4 with R4

Postby rv65 » 03 Aug 2010 23:33

The FIA stated that R4, could very well be a modified N4 car. It sounds more like an N4 with a 34 mm restrictor, and even more GroupA like parts, and some low cost mods.
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Re: FIA to replace Group N4 with R4

Postby rv65 » 04 Aug 2010 20:47

I've now heard that R4 will be a mixture of S2000 and N4. This could introduce Ford and Citroen to the P-WRC, but at the same time, I'm reserving my judgement for this class. The FIA seems to be interested in making GroupN even more expensive by adding some S2000 like freedom. A 150,000 EUR N4, will probably cost around 200,000 EUR with the prospects of it getting to 250,000 EUR. Now I'm sure the FIA will put some restrictions, but when I heard that R4 would have some S2000 like freedom, I knew it was going to get more expensive.
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Re: FIA to replace Group N4 with R4

Postby rv65 » 10 Aug 2010 02:51

The sad reality is that it's cheaper, to develop rally kit cars such as WRCars, S2000 and S2000 1.6T, then it is to build a 2,500 unit homologation special and then make a group N/A version of it. Thats the reason why group N only has Subaru and Mitsubishi. It's expensive to develop a road car, and most manufacturers like PSA would never consider a road going N4 capable road car, only to change out the components for the WRC. Thats even if the kit cars are more expensive than a N4 based Group A WRCar.
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Re: FIA to replace Group N4 with R4

Postby M4dmike » 10 Aug 2010 21:43

that is precicely why we need to et back to the group a regs, not nessessairily keeping 4x4 i that was dropped there is very few makes who dont have a suitable car to go rallying with, i mean look at all the fwd turbo hatches kicking round the market at the moment.
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Re: FIA to replace Group N4 with R4

Postby ChrisB » 11 Aug 2010 00:55

Yep, that's exactly why I talk of dropping 4x4!
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Re: FIA to replace Group N4 with R4

Postby rv65 » 23 Aug 2010 21:32

A good Evo IX N4 can cost around 110,000 EUR. The more expensive N4's are using catalog prices, and you can build a top spec N4 for less than retail prices. It all depends on how you do it.
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Re: FIA to replace Group N4 with R4

Postby rv65 » 24 Aug 2010 07:31

A N4 motor for an Evo IX costs around 7,000 EUR, maybe more, but it depends on where you buy it. Not sure if it's rebuilt or new. One person on another forum said that you can rebuild an Evo IX motor for only 3,000 EUR, with brand new parts. Compare that to S1600, which costs around 14,000 EUR. Turbos must be cheaper to rebuild and tune. Evo's are the cheapest N4's around, if you know where to buy all the parts. The settings on the car don't matter, as you can buy the parts yourself and have it tuned to your liking.
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