FIA to replace Group N4 with R4

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Re: FIA to replace Group N4 with R4

Postby rv65 » 07 Apr 2011 21:38

Ralliart Italy is working on an R4 kit for the Evo IX.
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Re: FIA to replace Group N4 with R4

Postby TWRC » 09 Apr 2011 08:13

rv65 wrote:Ralliart Italy is working on an R4 kit for the Evo IX.

Yeah, but I heard that many say it won't worth the money, since the Evo IX don't allow as much freedom as the X. But we'll see. The good point in this version that there are still tons of Evo IX's running everywhere.
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Re: FIA to replace Group N4 with R4

Postby rv65 » 09 Apr 2011 20:38

Carsten Mohe won Rally Erzgebirge in a Megane N4.

http://www.sportas.de/ergebnis/index.ph ... datei=ZW09

This car seems to have a lot of potential, even if it's only for Tarmac.
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Re: FIA to replace Group N4 with R4

Postby ChrisB » 22 Apr 2011 16:09

rv65 wrote:Carsten Mohe won Rally Erzgebirge in a Megane N4.

http://www.sportas.de/ergebnis/index.ph ... datei=ZW09

This car seems to have a lot of potential, even if it's only for Tarmac.

Absolutely! And it is super spectacular in handling and sound too! Of course for gravel it will lack the traction, but on asphalt it does challenge the Lancers and Imprezas already, it is not too expensive and it is a good show! Great stuff! If BRC goes 2WD, I hope they allow 2WD N4 + N(R)GT!
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Re: FIA to replace Group N4 with R4

Postby rv65 » 22 Apr 2011 17:54

Renault doesn't want this car to compete on Gravel. I think it's the suspension design that doesn't allow it to compete on Gravel. Unfortunately, Renault isn't allowed to change the suspension design due to N4 regulations.
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Re: FIA to replace Group N4 with R4

Postby rv65 » 23 Apr 2011 08:12

Only 2WD N4 and not R4. N4 can allow either 2WD or 4WD.
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Re: FIA to replace Group N4 with R4

Postby ChrisB » 23 Apr 2011 16:27

rv65 wrote:Only 2WD N4 and not R4. N4 can allow either 2WD or 4WD.

Yes. Interestingly N4 or N general has no relation to 4x4, just the niche products and the gravel content made it not very interesting to homologate an N4 car without 4x4, even if suitable cars with 4x4 are rare. In theory you can also homologate a 4x4 car into N3, and I think the Daihatsu Charade GTXX was such an example. But in N3 you usually have no turbo, which means you have the added weight and torque eating of 4x4, but not the torque to move it. If I remember right, off my head, the late 80s Daihatsu Charade was a perfect case of proof. GTXX was atmo 4x4 and was useless and GTti was FWD and 998cc Turbo and a car that came near the top10 o/a on many events, remember Terry Kaby....

In my early active days Renault themselves had the perfect N3 car, the R5 GTTurbo, FWD, 1400cc turbo. It was unbeatable in N3. Then came an FIA rule change and changed the turbo factor from 1.4 to 1.7 and that moved the R5 GTTurbo into the N4 category, where it still was a front runner in gN! But no more a regular class winner, which is why Renault eventually lost interest. Maybe these are even cars one could learn a lesson from. I don't think the R5 GTTurbo was always legal, but it showed how easy and cheap it is to tune a turbo. A road going R5 GTTurbo should have 115BHP, which sounds already quite good from a 1.4 Turbo in around 1990. But Alain Oreille won the PWRC 2 years running outright with this FWD gN car and I have stopped counting how often this car was in the top10 overall in a WRC event. As a groupN based on a 115BHP road version? Yeah right, more like 200+BHP! I do think the concept of 2WD turbo would be cost efficient and spectacular even today, Renault is one of those manufacturers I trust if they did a rally car it will always become a front runner for its purpose. I like the theory that the gN front runners of the past 1.5 decades were those manufacturers who never were the best, hence there is a lot of potential for improvement with only minor reg changes. But remember the competition in those days, if in gN a FWD 115BHP Renault drives circles round a Mitsubishi Galant VR4 or a Subaru Legacy, even I start scratching my head!
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Re: FIA to replace Group N4 with R4

Postby rv65 » 26 Apr 2011 04:20

The R5 is an amazing car for sure. It was so good that it had a small cult following in America, until the manufacturers effectively banned it's import into the US. Now older models are legal due to the 25 year rule.
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Re: FIA to replace Group N4 with R4

Postby rv65 » 03 May 2011 02:04

BRC is looking more like an amateur R2/R3 cup series than a proper national championship. They won't allow the Megane N4 even in gravel spec. BRC knows that they want to be the series for amateurs.
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Re: FIA to replace Group N4 with R4

Postby rv65 » 05 May 2011 08:53

In Rally Sweden there was a national event within the WRC round that had Gruppe H and Swedish N4 cars. Gruppe H is the Swedish equivalent of F-Cup where there are RWD cars. Drivers aren't allowed to have a co-driver and Recce is not allowed. Despite this some of the top Gruppe H guys in RWD cars were able to beat Ken Block in his expensive high tech Fiesta WRC. Gruppe H cars are far less expensive than the Fiesta WRC and are quite spectacular on the snow.
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Re: FIA to replace Group N4 with R4

Postby ChrisB » 05 May 2011 10:28

Stohl will be building and running the R4 Subarus in IRC:

http://subaru.rallye-info.com/article.a ... &stid=9262
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Re: FIA to replace Group N4 with R4

Postby rv65 » 11 May 2011 21:36

A Finnish magazine has mentioned that Citroen is working on a C4 R4. It's probably a 4WD car as you can't build a 2WD N4. I've heard that R4 doesn't have a minimum production requirement on the base car. Peugeot is working on a 208 R2 and an S2000 RRC.
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Re: FIA to replace Group N4 with R4

Postby RonSkoda » 12 May 2011 11:23

rv65 wrote: Peugeot is working on a 208 R2 and an S2000 RRC.


Anyone know when the 208 road car debuts?
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Re: FIA to replace Group N4 with R4

Postby rv65 » 12 May 2011 22:31

In a year or two.
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Re: FIA to replace Group N4 with R4

Postby ChrisB » 13 May 2011 13:51

RonSkoda wrote:Anyone know when the 208 road car debuts?

Yes, probably in a year. Peugeot is very secretive, nothing has leaked yet really, but they have already cancelled the 207 range together to a minimum of versions, which is a clear indication the 207 is on its way out. I wonder if the 208 is being smaller. The 207 is near exactly 306 size and Peugeot is having a mysterious problem. In that that strangely the 107 is a bad car with many unsatisfied customers, even though the Toyota Aygo has the the highest customer satisfaction in Europe and is a Peugeot 107 bar the badge. Seems Toyota customers don't expect much? Well whatever the reason, this is why the 206 was revived as a 206+ and at the moment the score could be that the 206 outlives the 207. Anyway, in the long run the 208 has to replace both.
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Re: FIA to replace Group N4 with R4

Postby TWRC » 14 May 2011 09:41

KAPS Transmissions has just finished the sequential gearbox for the Impreza R4. It is 10 kgs lighter than the gr.N dogbox, and its gearchange is around 40-50 milliseconds. More info: http://eng.kaps-transmissions.com/news-kaps/r4_subaru_sequential_gearbox-1198.html
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Re: FIA to replace Group N4 with R4

Postby rv65 » 25 Jun 2011 07:11

In the latest GPWeek, the FiA wants to have a new production rally car spec based on the R3 cars. They would likely have 1.6T engines, with a spec 4WD transmission and 4WD system. This would allow a company to build an N4 like car from an R3 shell. This would effectively remove the minimum production requirement. Apparently this could go into fruition in 2013. This was also posted in the News and Rumors thread, but it seems to fit the R4 thread as well. This spec is going to be cheaper than S2000, but we shall see. FiA doesn't know what the future will hold for the Evo and STi. Mitsubishi wants to make the next Evo into some kind of hybrid turbo sports sedan, while we don't know what Subaru will do with the Impreza.

Then again a DS3 R3 makes 235 HP with 102 octane fuel. 210 HP is on pump gas, and not the 102 octane stuff. A 33 mm restrictor would give the DS3 R3 around 300 HP, which would match the R4 cars. R4 cars probably make more than 300 HP. More like 320 to 340, and that is with the 33mm restrictor and 1.8 to 1.9 bar of boost.
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Re: FIA to replace Group N4 with R4

Postby rv65 » 25 Jun 2011 07:18

I think the cat is out of the bag. What Quesnel said on page 4 of the thread is exactly what the FiA wants to do with the R4/N4 class. This was posted above, so I don't need to repeat it again.
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Re: FIA to replace Group N4 with R4

Postby rv65 » 26 Jul 2011 21:51

http://www.maxrally.com/news/entry/chea ... y_planned/

More info on the new 2013 turbo formula aka next gen S2000. I wonder how they are going to keep the costs down. Knowing the FiA, they tend to make these things more than they really are.

S2000's have the simplest 4WD system there is for rallying, and yet they still cost over 300,000 EUR.
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Re: FIA to replace Group N4 with R4

Postby ChrisB » 31 Jul 2011 12:35

This N4/R4 thread turns surprisingly interesting.

You are sure the R4s have 340BHP? Because the Impreza R4 is slower than an old model Impreza N4 and Subaru says the project is perfectly on track.

“This would allow a company to build an N4 like car from an R3 shell.”

Not possible, because R3 is usually FWD and therefore for 4x4 you have to add a transmission tunnel, which is a majorly huge change to the shell and you need to develop a complete new rear axle, rear axle geometry, new fixing points to the shell, etc....

That essentially means it is yet another kit car formula and it is going to be expensive.

I too see the Lancer/Impreza as a dying species. Actually since a long time, remembering Escort Cosworth, Delta, Celica, 323iX, 323 4WD, Sunny Interwarmer, Golf Synchro, etc.. Mitsubishi said several times the EvoXI (or 11) is going to be a hybrid thingy rather than a motorsport base. Maybe they even do the Peugeot HY4 trick, of on Peugeot specs something like 170BHP FWD plus a 30BHP electric engine powering the rear wheels. It is clever as far as compared to a 4x4 this is a hybrid that is not heavier and doesn't cost too much more. But when they talk of 170 + 30 BHP = 200BHP system power, it is another one of the many environmental marketing lies. What kind of a 4x4 is that with 80% of the power front and 20% rear? To me that is a 170BHP car, if we start talking of system power I add to my car the air con, heater fan motor, electric seats and I soon have 300BHP! Sorry, off subject, but that seems to be what Mitsubishi is thinking about for their next Evo, and essentially that means the end to sporty Evos! Subaru nobody knows. They seem more interested to compete VW Polos and Toyota Yariss these days. So I am back to square one, the only way to carry on with 4x4 in rallying is kit cars and I am not sure this is a good idea.

If with a 34mm restrictor the FWD DS3 R3T has 300+BHP, let's do that and pitch it against a Porsche N-GT!
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